Banca d'Italia SL Falls Victim to Linden Lab 150% Fines But Promises To Pay Depositors
Banca d'Italia SL has issued a statement that indicates they have received money fraudulently obtained, and that Linden Lab is fining them for having received the funds. Can Linden Lab do that? It is well within their magic circle; here is the reference in the Risk API which is, incidentally, not mentioned in the Terms of Service or Community Standards. Here is the relevant quote, emphasis mine:
...If Linden Lab, in its sole discretion, determines that a Second Life user has purchased Linden Dollars for real currency through any means other than LindeX, and that the seller of such Linden Dollars acquired such Linden Dollars through fraudulent means, or any other means in violation of the Terms of Service, then Linden Lab will consider the buying user a complicit party in the fraud or violation. As a penalty for participation in such fraud or violation, Linden Lab will reduce the Linden Dollar balance of the buying Second Life account (and/or any Second Life accounts owned or operated by, or affiliated with, the owner of the buying account), by any amount up to 150% of the amount of Linden Dollars involved in the transaction. In addition, repeated participation in such fraud or violation will result in suspension or cancellation of the buying party's accounts. (The selling account will of course be suspended or cancelled on a single fraud or violation at Linden Lab's discretion.)...
Touchet Group, which became L&L Bank Trust, suffered these same fines - as well as countless others.
It is a silly rule, since there is no way that one can decide whether or not to accept money being given to you. Anyone can fall victim to it. And Linden Lab makes 50%.
Meanwhile, Banca d'Italia SL customers are promised that they will be repaid.
Technorati Tags: Banks Business Linden Lab Metaverse Op/Ed SecondLife Banca d'Italia SL fraud magic circle
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Does anyone know anything yet about BISL
I had a load of money there, and I really like to know who to contact or what to do??
Shenandoah Saintlouis
Risk API
What a great tool for griefers. If I understand this correctly, someone that has access to bogus Linden dollars can create an alt on a proxy, and then "pay" some unsuspecting person a large amount of these bogus Lindens and cause the victim to incur the fine?!
The third party withdrawal idea suggested here in the comments is interesting. However, why should it be given exclusively to Anshe/SLX? There are plenty of capable and responsible companies in Second Life beside SLX, how about we spread the "gifts" around to more than just one place?
The problem with the Risk api is that it is made absolutely unavailable by Linden Lab. My wife and I have sent email requests to make application to get the api countless times over the last several months. We follow the requirements that are stipulated; real name, avatar name, etc. We've got gold cards linked to our accounts, we've never had any kind of problem at all with our tier payments, Lindex purchases, complaints against us, etc. After several months and many emails, we have never once received any reply whatsoever from Linden Lab regarding this. At this point, we'd even be happy to get a response telling us to go fly a kite. Instead, it seems requests for the risk api simply go into some black hole never to be seen by a Linden staffer. Want to make Second Life transactions safer? Throw people a bone when they try to do the right thing and follow the rules.
Jim Allen
Risk API
It is very important to email the RiskAPI department all day everyday until you get a response from Patsy and her team. This is very unfortunate and I think the most unfair rule ever but LL does this to recover funds that have been converted to USD and removed from the system.
I think it would be an even better idea if LL hired a 3rd party like SLX to facilitate cash outs than do it themselves and possibly some things like this can be eliminated. Luckily, I do have Risk API so I have not been dinged as my alts are related to my main account.
I wish them the best of luck in getting through this...I feel like a communist and LL is the government.
Well, this is where I differ in opinion.
Here's the thing: If Linden Lab's Lindex is used to cash out money that was obtained fraudulently, I do not see how they could hold a resident culpable and make them pay for a problem that rightfully is their own.
If the fraudulently obtained funds were withdrawn from someone else's rendition of Lindex - fair enough. The person running that exchange is responsible. That appears to be the spirit of the Risk API - since it is not even referenced in the Terms of Service or Community Standards which people are expected to read.
The trouble is that people who do not use the Risk API, such as individuals and entities which are businesses in Second Life, are fined for these things with no prior warning from Linden Lab, and no way to protect themselves. That is simply assinine, and I find the state of affairs indefensible.
The best bet would probably be to deal with withdrawal limits on the Lindex Exchange to assure that large amounts cannot be withdrawn. Wait. They are already doing that, right?
Further indefensible.
So what are we left with?
The people paying for service are being fined for the problems of the service.
I am all ears on how that previous sentence could be considered wrong. It would help if Linden Lab actually said something official instead of going the normal route of silence. Maybe they can use their new press corps for that, as they do not seem to be able to get their blog to tackle the tough issues that do cost people real money.
Do I want to damn them? No, I don't. I want them to fix it so we stop seeing it happen. I'd go to a meeting of theirs if I thought that it would help solve the problem, but that doesn't help.
What I do know is that if they can't fix problems like this, they are helping their competition.
Second Life Consultant
Just to clarify and another suggestion
Touchet Group did NOT become L&L Bank and Trust. Second Life Investment Bank was purchased to become L&L Bank and Trust. Second Life Investment Bank was a joint venture funded by Touchet Group and facilitated by L&L Rentals and Sales. Just clearing that up.
Also, if you are able to catch suspicious deposits and such before they are withdrawn and cashed out, you can avoid the 150%. Monitor your databases like by the minute. I have a few widgets at work with stock trading, all the SL stock exchanges up, and the bank admin up refreshing every 10 minutes at least. Some may think this is over kill but it is how I caught the theft happening and was able to get the account locked while it was still happening so they were not able to cash out of SL.
Thanks for clarifying, Lindsay
I stand corrected (and I should have known better. Sorry.)
The suspicious deposits before they are withdrawn? Could you clarify this? What, as a depositor, could I do that would flag me as being suspicious - depositing a large sum?
See, this is what I don't get. If I went to L&L bank, deposited 3 million Lindens, I would only be able to withdraw my daily limit - which I suspect is around 100,000 Lindens (pretty standard). So if I do cash out, I cash out only a small amount.
Plus, how do you decide whether my deposit is legitimate? Ultimately, Linden Lab decides what is fraudulent or not - and they haven't uttered one word about buying Linden dollars on eBay as being fraudulent - and yet, they also penalize people for receiving money purchased on eBay?
I respect that you know what you are talking about, but in the grander scheme of things I do not see how it applies to Linden Lab's decision of what is fraudulent or not. Are they using a legal definition, or are they using some obscure Linden Lab definition which alters every 3 seconds?
Second Life Consultant
eBay Lindens
I have purchased Lindens on ebay before but I did have those funds transferred to my RP alt as to not conflict with any issues and I left the funds sit there for about a month before I moved them.....though it was only $10,500...
Then... you are one who has.
That's why this remains one of the most read articles on this site.
Second Life Consultant
YOU CAN RETURN MONEY
YOU SAID THERE IS NO ACCEPT... BUT YOU CAN RETURN MONEY! ALSO THINK ABOUT ALL THE WORK SL HAS TO DO TO HUNT IT DOWN!
OK, Caps-Lock Commando
You can return money. No one said that you couldn't. Now all you have to do is figure out who has given you money that was obtained fraudulently.
Hint: Caps-Lock won't help you with that.
As far as Linden Lab's efforts to find it.... I call bullshit. If they find out who gave who what money - indicated by the very fact that they fine people - then they can damned well turn the transaction around.
This is not the 'Blow Smoke Up Posterior' department. Move along.
Second Life Consultant
Actually
The daily withdrawal limit is 50k and anything above that has to have express approval from myself alone and it is respective of that person's individual account just like a RL bank can allow higher limits. You don't really know if someone is fraudulent but there are things to look for such as
really large deposits from a new customer
multiple deposits in the same day of different amounts
large deposit followed by large withdrawal
sudden action on a dormant account
There are just things that are out of the norm than can be spotted fairly quickly. Also, my system logs IP addresses so I can spot alts...
One of these days, I would like to implement a system that allows for smaller withdrawals based on term like RL banks do 2-14 day holds on checks coming into an account younger than 30 days and 2-7 days up to the first 6 months of the account.
Doesn't it seem...
that requiring everyone to do this to avoid being fined 150% by Linden Labs... doesn't that seem kind of silly?
That is my point, really. I know you're good at what you do - never questioned it - but if everyone gets fined 150%, should we all be out there monitoring our transactions with scripts, et al?
I'm sorry; I don't think so.
Second Life Consultant