So Does 75,000L (Possibly 145K) for 5 Days on a Half Sim Seem Like a Fair Deal to You? (REVISED)
In world I have a group called Honorable Land dealers association. I created the group because I was really getting tired of the land groups I was in that didn't really stand for much, accepted any and every dealer, and were spam monsters or just places for people to try to sell you land via group chat. In my group, I invite anyone who asks and agrees that they abide by a higher code of ethics in land dealing. When I get a complaint about a member of the group, I take it seriously and along with a spectacular group of panelist, try to mediate the situation. If mediation does not work, we talk and decide on if we should keep or boot the member. We have only had to use this process a few times, and so far it's worked out really well. I think were a really fair group, and people have been more than willing to accept the mediation and try to work it out. I feel bad that we were not able to offer any type of support for a person who had a complaint and offered to blog his experience because it's about the only form of help I can offer at this point. Fair warning... this ordeal is a long read. It all started when I received this note card.
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Several friends and I were forced off the sim we lived on (Xanadu Island) when it was sold and flattened. We wanted to keep our group of residents together, so we set about trying to find an island to purchase. Elysium Qinan and I (Waydahel Offcourse) joined Dilly Dawes, Rayvn Hynes and Country Beaumont in their ownership group named RandEm Inc. Rayvn and Country found a half sim for rent by perfumed Odets. On November 5, 2007 Country agreed upon a payment method with perfumed and began to set up plots. All plot divisions were directly supervised by perfumed Odets. Several of our friends including Uni Ninetails and Poppychic Darcy were able to set up their homes. Rayvn and Dilly Dawes began setting up commercial buildings on a portion of the purchased property. Country apparently also made several good faith payments in lindens to perfumed under duress because of the natural delay in processing an e-check payment.
I was contacted by Dilly Dawes on November 7, 2007. He told me that perfumed told him that Country's e-check had bounced (this is apparently untrue) and that if she was not paid in lindens by the end of the day, she would ban all of us from the sim. I immediately met perfumed and asked how to make things right. she told me she needed payment of 75000 lindens which would include a penalty for the bounced check. I purchased lindens with my credit card and paid her 75000 lindens within 10 minutes.
On November 8, 2007 all owners of RandEm Inc. were banned from the Island. I contacted perfumed who muted me before fully explaining exactly why she would not refund all payments. She did tell me I should take the blame for my friend Country and her fake check scheme. I have a saved chat log if that would prove helpful.
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Oddly enough, I also logged into an im from Perfumed asking me how to sell estate land.
[19:25] perfumed Odets: (Saved Sat Nov 10 15:16:12 2007) hi.i am new in land trading..
[19:25] perfumed Odets: (Saved Sat Nov 10 15:16:51 2007) and i am rying to get my sims for sale expoosed got two sims empty now for long..saw your ads appearing high at front page in search- land sales..would u mind telling me how to do tht? thnx
[19:35] Sarah Nerd: I have a few people claiming to have paid you for land who say that after 2 payments they were banned. Honorable land dealers association takes membership very seriously, so when we have complaints we try to mediate, and if mediation doesnt work, group officers vote on what to do. If You would like to remain a member could You please write up a notecard of Your sidefor our mediators.
[19:35] perfumed Odets: they are lying
[19:35] perfumed Odets: first of all
[19:35] perfumed Odets: i rented half sim
[19:35] perfumed Odets: to One pers
[19:35] perfumed Odets: and she lied
[19:36] perfumed Odets: about the payment
[19:36] perfumed Odets: she said she cant buy linden
[19:36] perfumed Odets: and can only pay via paypal
[19:36] perfumed Odets: and she didnt send me the money
[19:36] perfumed Odets: via paypal
[19:36] perfumed Odets: but she just moved in
[19:36] perfumed Odets: with 30 something ppl
[19:36] Sarah Nerd: What they are telling me is that You said the first persons payment bounced possibly and a 2nd person paid you the amount plus extra fees
[19:36] perfumed Odets: and sold some of my lands tht i rented to her
[19:36] perfumed Odets: and still now
[19:36] perfumed Odets: her e - check didnt reach me
[19:36] perfumed Odets: and she confessed
[19:36] perfumed Odets: after 3 days
[19:36] perfumed Odets: after she moved in
[19:37] perfumed Odets: she got no money in her bank accont
[19:37] perfumed Odets: and in the paypal account
[19:37] Sarah Nerd: Well I have a 2nd person telling me they paid that amount plus fees because you said they needed to pay fees for the bounced check
[19:37] perfumed Odets: they are all friends
[19:37] perfumed Odets: to each other
[19:37] perfumed Odets: and i offered
[19:37] perfumed Odets: to the person
[19:37] perfumed Odets: they gave my land to
[19:37] perfumed Odets: free rent
[19:37] perfumed Odets: in one of my land
[19:37] perfumed Odets: cos i felt pity
[19:38] perfumed Odets: tht she lost the land after payiing all of sudden like tht
[19:38] perfumed Odets: although "she" isnt my responsibility
[19:38] perfumed Odets: u can ask her
[19:38] perfumed Odets: i have her in my pal list
[19:38] perfumed Odets: and
[19:38] perfumed Odets: i think
[19:38] perfumed Odets: tricking someone
[19:38] perfumed Odets: with invalid e check payment is a fraud
[19:38] perfumed Odets: and crime
[19:38] perfumed Odets: i take it very sriously
[19:39] perfumed Odets: and half sim isnt cheap exactly
[19:39] perfumed Odets: and she sold my lands to others
[19:39] Sarah Nerd: I know that really well
[19:39] perfumed Odets: which she is renting
[19:39] perfumed Odets: i asked her
[19:39] perfumed Odets: 4 times
[19:39] Sarah Nerd: Did Waydahel Offcourse pay you as well?
[19:39] perfumed Odets: to fix the situation
[19:39] perfumed Odets: and she kept ignored it
[19:39] Sarah Nerd: Waydahel Offcourse says that he paid you 75000L
[19:39] perfumed Odets: he sent me the Linden on her behalf aftr 3 days passed since they moved in
[19:40] perfumed Odets: but then also
[19:40] perfumed Odets: i asked her to read the convenant
[19:40] perfumed Odets: which stating
[19:40] Sarah Nerd: and says they were all banned the next day
[19:40] perfumed Odets: late payment can cause into the termincation of the rent with no refund
[19:40] perfumed Odets: and breaking of the agreemnts
[19:40] perfumed Odets: or convenant
[19:40] perfumed Odets: the same
[19:40] perfumed Odets: and she broke it everyday
[19:40] perfumed Odets: and was keep ignoring my Ims
[19:40] perfumed Odets: while talking to others
[19:40] perfumed Odets: next to me
[19:40] perfumed Odets: not next day
[19:40] perfumed Odets: 3 days
[19:41] perfumed Odets: afterward
[19:41] Sarah Nerd: SO he did pay You, you kept it and then baned them because of cov clause?
[19:41] perfumed Odets: as they kept violating the convenants
[19:41] perfumed Odets: and also cos of the fake check thing
[19:41] perfumed Odets: and i rented to Her
[19:41] perfumed Odets: not to all her gangs
[19:41] perfumed Odets: whom i didnt know about
[19:41] Sarah Nerd: but You did accept a 75K payment and ban them the next day?
[19:41] Sarah Nerd: on land they lived on 3 days
[19:42] perfumed Odets: no
[19:42] perfumed Odets: not 3 days
[19:42] perfumed Odets: they lived
[19:42] perfumed Odets: let me check the calendar
[19:42] perfumed Odets: and my convenant is my jurisdiction i think
[19:42] perfumed Odets: if they keep violating the convenants
[19:42] perfumed Odets: and dont pay the rent
[19:42] perfumed Odets: in time
[19:42] perfumed Odets: i have my right
[19:42] perfumed Odets: to terminate the deal
[19:42] perfumed Odets: and u says
[19:42] perfumed Odets: they admitted to u
[19:43] perfumed Odets: the check Bounced?
[19:43] Sarah Nerd: I can understand that but I think accepting 75 k and then banning the next day is a questionable practice.
[19:44] perfumed Odets: i dint ban next day
[19:44] perfumed Odets: i gave them 3 days again
[19:44] perfumed Odets: and she was violating the rules daily
[19:44] perfumed Odets: and ignored me
[19:44] perfumed Odets: i have givenger 4 warnings
[19:44] perfumed Odets: her*
[19:44] perfumed Odets: and i also
[19:44] perfumed Odets: talked to
[19:44] perfumed Odets: many other sim traders
[19:44] perfumed Odets: about this issue
[19:44] Sarah Nerd: How long did they live there?
[19:44] perfumed Odets: and they all suggested me to kick them out
[19:45] perfumed Odets: everytime
[19:45] perfumed Odets: each incident took place
[19:45] perfumed Odets: from the first day
[19:45] perfumed Odets: of them moving in
[19:45] perfumed Odets: i been talking about it
[19:45] perfumed Odets: with other sim traders
[19:45] perfumed Odets: for their opinions
[19:45] perfumed Odets: they are old time big sim traders
[19:45] perfumed Odets: why do i have to get the approval from u on this?
[19:45] perfumed Odets: i also
[19:45] perfumed Odets: discussed about this
[19:45] perfumed Odets: with linden
[19:46] perfumed Odets: and he said..i have all right to kick them out
[19:46] perfumed Odets: on cases like this
[19:46] Sarah Nerd: Because I consider the land dealers association the cream of the crop in land dealers.
[19:46] Sarah Nerd: We refer a lot of customers to the group
[19:46] perfumed Odets: i can leave it
[19:46] perfumed Odets: and aso
[19:46] perfumed Odets: ask hem
[19:47] perfumed Odets: who they were renting from
[19:47] perfumed Odets: before renting from me
[19:47] perfumed Odets: i checked
[19:47] perfumed Odets: with their former landlord
[19:47] perfumed Odets: at tht time
[19:47] perfumed Odets: they were renting
[19:47] Sarah Nerd: and generally when our dealers have issues with renters, booting happens but we refund unused time out of honor
[19:47] perfumed Odets: by the name
[19:47] perfumed Odets: of one of their friends
[19:47] perfumed Odets: adn he kinda
[19:47] perfumed Odets: cheated on tht landlord woman too
[19:47] Sarah Nerd: Just to be fair dealers
[19:47] perfumed Odets: i confirmed
[19:48] Sarah Nerd: I can totally understand booting someone You have issues with, but keeping money especially such a large sum for unused time is a very questionable practice.
[19:48] perfumed Odets: i dont want to be generous to ones who are actively seeking to cheat on others
[19:48] perfumed Odets: if the pers
[19:48] perfumed Odets: was with good intent
[19:48] perfumed Odets: why she was lying about her payment
[19:48] perfumed Odets: why she had to send me the Invalid echeck
[19:49] perfumed Odets: with no money in her account to back it up
[19:49] perfumed Odets: and why she was beginning to BUlly me
[19:49] perfumed Odets: with her friends
[19:49] perfumed Odets: once i got my land set to ehr group
[19:49] Sarah Nerd: But You did accept payment from Waydahel Offcourse, and I'm just curious about how much time he received for 75K
[19:49] perfumed Odets: thinking
[19:49] perfumed Odets: she owns the land
[19:49] perfumed Odets: and she deoswnt have to pay me
[19:49] perfumed Odets: or listen to wht i say
[19:49] perfumed Odets: Why she was refusing to fix the sityation
[19:49] perfumed Odets: after selling My lands
[19:49] perfumed Odets: she is renting only from me to others
[19:50] Sarah Nerd: Can You just let me know how much time Waydahel Offcourse recieved for his 75K payment
[19:50] perfumed Odets: i didnt rent the Land to HIm
[19:50] perfumed Odets: i rented it to
[19:50] perfumed Odets: country beaumont
[19:50] Sarah Nerd: But you accepted his money on her behalf
[19:50] perfumed Odets: he was merely standing up adn was saying he wanted to cover for ehr
[19:50] perfumed Odets: so the money paid
[19:51] perfumed Odets: was for tht woman to have the permission to use my land
[19:51] perfumed Odets: but under certain restrictions and rules
[19:51] perfumed Odets: ya
[19:51] perfumed Odets: on her behalf
[19:51] perfumed Odets: but it deosnt mean
[19:51] Sarah Nerd: So how much time did she recieve for this 75k before she was booted
[19:51] perfumed Odets: they can egt immune from breaking the convenant cases
[19:52] perfumed Odets: roughtly 5 days
[19:52] Sarah Nerd: And you feel its a fair practice to keep 75K for 5 days because they broke rules
[19:53] perfumed Odets: with their attitude yes.
[19:53] perfumed Odets: how do i keep up with them
[19:53] perfumed Odets: when they are going against them deliberately eevryday
[19:53] perfumed Odets: and when they just Ignore my ims
[19:53] perfumed Odets: when i am addressing about those
[19:53] perfumed Odets: and they can Not sell
[19:53] perfumed Odets: the lands of someone which tehy are just renting
[19:53] perfumed Odets: wht would have happened
[19:53] perfumed Odets: if it was the mainland
[19:54] perfumed Odets: they would have goitten away with it just
[19:54] Sarah Nerd: Ok well I think thats greedy land dealing ethics personally when it comes that large of an amount, but I have a panel in the group that decides weather or not to keep members
[19:54] perfumed Odets: and their clearly tried to cheat on me with invalid check
[19:54] perfumed Odets: its ok
[19:54] perfumed Odets: i can gladly leave
[19:54] perfumed Odets: i dont think persoanally wht u think is so right..
[19:54] perfumed Odets: i would disagree to your view
[19:54] perfumed Odets: if u want to give them lands
[19:54] perfumed Odets: based on bounced check
[19:54] perfumed Odets: go ahaed
[19:55] perfumed Odets: but i dont want to keep the ones who actively to cheat on others on my lands
[19:55] perfumed Odets: and if i am a greedy one
[19:55] perfumed Odets: why i give my land
[19:55] perfumed Odets: to thee person
[19:55] perfumed Odets: they took the money from
[19:55] perfumed Odets: for offering my land?
[19:57] Sarah Nerd: YYou should of at least paid back there unused time
[19:57] perfumed Odets: i got the different viewpoint
[19:57] perfumed Odets: they majorly broke the moral code
[19:58] perfumed Odets: and sl convenant rules
[19:58] perfumed Odets: ithink they deserve to lose some money
[19:58] perfumed Odets: so they can learn
[19:58] perfumed Odets: i waited
[19:58] perfumed Odets: with no money being paid
[19:58] perfumed Odets: after them all moved into my sim
[19:58] perfumed Odets: 3 dys
[19:58] perfumed Odets: days
[19:58] perfumed Odets: on tht woman's word
[19:58] perfumed Odets: tht i should trust her
[19:58] perfumed Odets: adn she spilt tht she got no money
[19:58] perfumed Odets: in the accounts..bank or paypal
[19:59] perfumed Odets: but she was still claiming check gonna go through
[19:59] perfumed Odets: tht she has done it many times befroe
[19:59] perfumed Odets: then my head was beginning to hurt..with migraine
[19:59] perfumed Odets: feeling she got the dark intent in her mind
[19:59] perfumed Odets: and its me..but i get intolerant about abd ppl
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Theres a bit of confusion of the e-check. Perfumed said it bounced, Waydahel and Country provided this paypal email saying it was not processed but was pending and would take 6-8 business days. So that could go either way.
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----- Original Message -----
From: service@intl.paypal.com
To: XXXXXX XXXXXXX
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 3:09 PM
Subject: Your Payment Has Been Initiated
Dear XXXXXX XXXXXXX,
Your payment for $270.00 USD to (private@private.com) has been initiated. This payment will be completed once the recipient has accepted the payment.
It may take a few moments for this transaction to appear in the Recent Activity list on your Account Overview.
Your eCheck payment will remain "Uncleared" until the funds clear from the your account, which usually takes 6-8 business days. If you are purchasing an item to be shipped, your seller may not ship the item until the funds have cleared.
Currency Conversion: $258.75 CAD = $270.00 USD
The exchange rate for this purchase is 1 CAD = 1.04348USD
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I talked to Waydahel one last time just to see what the rent was before fees. Normal rent was 70K, so he paid her 75K that included 5K worth of fees because perfumed said that the e-check bounced. Both sides have different views on what happened with the paypal payment, but both party's do agree that Waydahel paid 75,000L or approx $280usd, and that they only lived on the sim for 4-5 days. Personally I think on an amount of money that large, even if I felt the tenants were the spawn of the devil himself, I would have booted, but at least paid back all or most of the unused rental fees. I can understand keeping the money for the 5 used days, even a fee for the hassle, but I think keeping such a large sum of money is very questionable. I think just the fact that she accepted Waydahel's money when she knew she was going to boot was a dirty act in itself. But hey thats just my opinion. And for whatever it's worth I had people in Honarable land dealers association im me privately to say that they had had a lot of other issues with her in the past, and didn't feel she was the most honest of people. Take from all of this what You will.
This situation continues and You can see Perfumed's side of the whole situation and what she felt I posted wrong HERE
A few major points she wanted cleared was that she says she let them remain there 3 days after she recieved the 75K, but still they were only there 5 days total. Also she says the 75K was 70K for rent and the extra 5K wasn't for the bad first payment, it was late fees. She also feels I made it appear that she mislead them and she feels thats false. I want to be fair and true in my posts so please see her side. In this post she also shares what stress she feels they caused her and why she feels it was pefectly acceptable to keep the 75k because of the type of people they were and the stress they caused her. Please see this post for a full understanding of this whole situation.
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Empty sims but still buying?
Perfumed claims to have had 2 sims empty now for ages, yet has been posting pretty much daily on the Land Sales & Rentals forum trying to buy more sims. http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=222892
I would imagine any residents she does have will be looking for new homes soon if she keeps wasting cash like that.
As it happens, many of the affected are currently living in adjacent plots on one of my sims, but I knew they had been looking at getting somewhere with a little more flexibility.
Abuse of Power is right - followup
It might have helped for me to say who i was... *blush* the last pose (and this one) was from Delicious Demar...
note to self: log in before making comments...
Abuse of Power is right
Wow. when I read about this kind of thing happening it just makes my blood boil. There are many land owners that rent out land ethically - I would venture to say the vast majority. When things like this happen it totally undermines all of our credibility. I often get people asking me for land, who will never consider doing an estate rental just because they have heard stories like this one, and frankly - I find it hard to argue with them.
I am glad to see that there is a group dedicated to at least trying to resolve/mediate these issues. I will IM you inworld, Sarah, about signing up, if that's ok. I have always tried to treat my tenants fairly, and would NEVER use the covenant rules as an excuse to take their money and then boot them. On the extremely rare occasions when I have had to ask a tenant to leave (actually this has only happened once in 18 months - we are usually able to resolve issues) - i have always provided a complete refund of any rent that has been paid in advance.
If there is anything I can do to further the aim of this group - please let me know.
Del
Abuse of power.
that is what I think. Complete and utter abuse of power.
The pricing... I dunno. You know I do things a little differently. I'd actually been considering another island, but these days... I don't know.
Second Life Consultant
Thats exactly what it is.
Thats exactly what it is. Abuse of power.
Interesting....
I have dealt with a situation like this in the past with rule violation but the amount was only 40k and the group was griefing the sim in the name of the law so I booted them after my 3 strikes you're out warnings and I don't believe I refunded them. This was back when I was just managing sims and the sim owner decided to give him back 60% of his money considering the mess his group caused on the sim and the sim owner was supposed to give back around 22k and put in 1 too many zeros and gave back 220k and the guy only refunded him 153k of the money back.....in some cases a refund isn't deserved and in this one the guy ended up swindling us in the end.
This was a bit far fetched but she said they were constantly breaking rules. Was this in her covenant that she would not refund? If it was they have no argument here. If not, then yes, blatant abuse of power and she should be strung up on the gallows for it. I don't know, this one can go both ways for me.
No she said it said no
No she said it said no refunds, but I'm sorry I think it's shady as hell. Knowing they were breaking her rules according to her she accepted the 75K a day before she booted. No matter what type of hassel (if any) they cause her it's not worth $280 usd for 5 days. She charged a 5K fee for the late payment hassel, and made it appear like if they paid the rent plus this extra fee, then they would all be square. So she lead them to believe that, took the money, then booted the next day. I think thats just as dirty or misleading as anything the renters did.
It's one thing to boot
It's one thing to boot somebody for breaking the rules, it's quite another to take more money from them, in between knowing you're going to boot them and actually telling them.
what if the covenant was
what if the covenant was stating that in case of the breach of the convenant, there will be no refund. And these rentors moved in trying to cheat on the payment method in an attempt of using the land for free, hence their Attenpt on Initiating the payment with Invalid e-check and later on, afer days of moving in, confessing that they have no money in the bank account or in paypal to cover their e-check initiated. And they did not get booted right after paying in linden, the rent fee belatedly, right away.
They got booted out days later, as they kept violating the convenants- They have been caught by the estate manager on their acts of pushing away other people who are not their group members on the sim, bullying off the sim visitors who were there to check on the lands for purchase or rent, and they were acting abusively to the sim owner and visitors with cursings and f-words.
And for another reason, they got booted for selling the parcels that they are merely renting from the sim owner to other people wrongfully collecting the money from them. And after the numerous warnings, they did not fix the situations. while they again were having several days given to fix the breakings of the convenants and agreements of the such.
I think the estate owner got more than valid reasons to boot off the rentor like this.If anyone wants to claim against it, I would suggest them to buy the estate sims and keep this group of people on their sims. and be happy with them on his or her land together.
I can see the blog owners can claim they can write and post whatever they find to be pleasing in their blog pages, but if they want to call themselves to be fair or honornable, maybe they should have some thoughts on checking the facts straight before blowing up twisting the facts.
And also maybe she can use some senses to check on the rental histories and the former landlords of these people who they have cheated with the invalid e check payment method previously also.