October 28, 2007 by Sarah Nerd
Posted in
5 Days after Michelle lost her land, Celene agreed to give it back to her with the condition that we blogged about it. You can find that blog HERE.
A few days ago I recieved this instant message from Michelle Lingiuan who had lost her 4096 meter parcel and all contents for $1L to infamous land bot runner Celene Ballinger. Like most people taken by Celene, Michelle was totally unaware that such bots exsisted and could buy Your land in a split second until it happened to her. Linden Labs refuses to take notice or help the residents this has hurt and in my opinion if they will not help people then they should at least make this danger well known with blogs and warnings. I can't explain Michelle's experience better than she can so here is our conversation...
[21:10] Sarah Nerd: how much land did you have taken?
[21:11] Michelle Lingiuan: it was 4096 or something i just bought it and had my store contents in it the other day
[21:11] Michelle Lingiuan: and a friend was trying to help me out
[21:11] Michelle Lingiuan: so we were there, and i was selling it to him for 1 linden to get him to fix something and within 2 seconds it was sold to her
[21:12] Michelle Lingiuan: then these bots came in soon after
[21:12] Michelle Lingiuan: 2 of them
[21:12] Sarah Nerd: yea theres 4 or 5 bot runners, most give back land errors
[21:12] Sarah Nerd: Celene doesn't =(
[21:12] Sarah Nerd: It's just really dirty
[21:12] Michelle Lingiuan: thats what i was reading and damn this is so wrong
[21:12] Michelle Lingiuan: i can't believe linden labs is allowing this
[21:13] Michelle Lingiuan: i mean our real life money is gone now
[21:13] Sarah Nerd: Did you even know they exsisted before you lost the land?
[21:13] Michelle Lingiuan: nope
[21:13] Michelle Lingiuan: and i have been playing since november of last year
[21:13] Michelle Lingiuan: thats why i was looking today all about this
[21:13] Michelle Lingiuan: and the only things i found out was from your site and not on linden labs
[21:13] Sarah Nerd: People always argue in forums that people should know about them by now, but until it happens or if you deal land how you could you know?
[21:14] Michelle Lingiuan: they should have posted something to warn us
[21:14] Sarah Nerd: Linden labs should at the very least warn about this
[21:14] Michelle Lingiuan: exactly this is their responsibility too
[21:14] Sarah Nerd: And not allow it if you ask me
[21:14] Michelle Lingiuan: i sent in a ticket last night right
[21:14] Michelle Lingiuan: and basically i got back a response saying it was my own fault
[21:15] Michelle Lingiuan: so then i called them today
[21:15] Sarah Nerd: Do you still have it?
[21:15] Michelle Lingiuan: and got an answering machine
[21:15] Michelle Lingiuan: the ticket?
[21:15] Sarah Nerd: yea
[21:15] Michelle Lingiuan: yeah let me pull it up for you hang on
[21:15] Sarah Nerd: im curious about how they word it
[21:16] Michelle Lingiuan: k here is what i sent in
[21:16] Michelle Lingiuan: Summary: Land sale that should not have gone through If issue is about an Alt account, what account?: Ticket Type: Technical Issue Basic or Guest Access - only a few ticket types allowed: Contact Email address: Technical issue: Viewer/web: Inworld Issue: What Type of Connection do you Have?: Operating System: Web Browser: What Graphics Card do you have?: Are there multiple monitors?: 1 Crash/Error: Error Message: Listing issue: Group issue: Land issue: Group name: Location (region, coordinates): behrii (232.1.193.4.29.0) Accounts issue: Partner name: Billing type: Linden$ Payment: LL Payment type: Resident payment issue: Billing issue: Charge type: Credit issue: Payment type: Paypal email address: Real name (on payment account): Credit Card type: Last 4 digits of Credit Card: Transaction Amount: Transaction Date: Transaction Time (PST): Region Request: Region Change: Transfer type: Other person's n
[21:16] Michelle Lingiuan: Other person's name: Celene Ballinger Region Name: New name for Region: Owner of island it will be adjacent to (if any): Order Date (approx): Avatar Name: Registration Date: Name of Guest (1 allowed): VAT questions: Preferred Language: English
[21:17] Michelle Lingiuan: Celene Ballinger purchased my land in error (and I just bought it for 15000 lindens the other day), my friend bison and i were working on something and i was selling it to him for 1 linden to test some stuff out but she grabbed the land before he could, can i please have it back? my store is there everything that i worked hard for and this was a mistake and i am not sure how in the world she was able to buy it like that since it was just the 2 of us here. the land was not for sale at all its behrii 242,191,29 I am assuming this person has bots planted as they started showing up on the land. I will return her linden dollar but I do want my land back. I would also like this av checked out because it does seem wrong that she was able to do this within a matter of seconds.
[21:18] Michelle Lingiuan: and here is there response
[21:18] Michelle Lingiuan: Hi there, thank for your contact. I would urge you to make contact with the new owner, Celene Ballinger, to resolve this matter since this was a private land sale and nothing to do with Linden Lab. There are residents across the Second Life world who use various methods to track down and buy cheap land and, given the extremely low price your land was set to sell for, it was inevitable that someone might swoop in and buy it. The best advice I can offer for future land transfers is not to set your land for sale to 'anyone' at low or no price but to sell land to a specific resident for a low or no price instead. The land parcel tools allow you to do this and it removes the risk of anyone else being able to buy it. Kind Regards, Matthew
[21:19] Sarah Nerd: well what a nice fuck you
[21:19] Michelle Lingiuan: okay so i knew all that part but i did not know there were these bots running around doing this
[21:19] Michelle Lingiuan: so then i wrote them back with this
[21:19] Michelle Lingiuan: Hi there, I have tried to contact her on many attempts, her profile even has this listed and I did do as it says: Hello, thank you for looking at my profile. I come to Second Life to explore and to have fun. Are you contacting me about a land you sold me? Do you want me to look into it? Send me a "note card" with details. If you made a MISTAKE by listing your land for cheap, well be nice, or else... I DO NOT answer to Instant Messages. Only to notes. Now if Linden Labs cannot help me with this who can? This was something a friend and I were doing privately so he could help me fix something and was not to be sold to someone so how can they just be able to come and swoop up and buy the land within a matter of seconds, I understand they use various methods but the amount of money I have lost when I purchased the land and all my items on the land are there I mean it just does not seem appropriate that a bot can come and take your land like this????
[21:21] Michelle Lingiuan: no response back yet from that last one, then i called and left them a message about it that i searched on their support sites etc and there is NOTHING there about land bots etc or anything to make us aware this is going on
[21:22] Sarah Nerd: When they first came out, there was a mention in the blog saying they were looking into it, but they have never said anything since beyond, we dont get involved.
[21:22] Michelle Lingiuan: has this happened to you?
[21:23] Sarah Nerd: I've lost 2 lots, but luckily they were both very small. I know several people who have though, up to nearly a full sim
[21:23] Sarah Nerd: Mostly from people transfering to the person next to them unaware bots exsist, and a few glitches
[21:24] Sarah Nerd: like its laggy and a number bounces back in price before people realize
[21:24] Sarah Nerd: No matter how it happens, its not right that people get taken advantage of in such a manner
[21:25] Michelle Lingiuan: i know especially when we are dealing with rl money now too
[21:25] Sarah Nerd: Yea nothings cheap in sl, this all works out to real money and a lot of real money
[21:25] Michelle Lingiuan: exactly people put in a lot of money into this
[21:25] Sarah Nerd: Would you mind if I blogged any of this or shared it with a few people in anti bot groups?
[21:26] Michelle Lingiuan: and to have mistakes like this and just have it taken over
[21:26] Michelle Lingiuan: oh please do
[21:26] Michelle Lingiuan: the more people know the better
[21:26] Sarah Nerd: Yea thats the way I look at it. I hope if enough people are aware and ride LL about it that eventually they take action
[21:27] Michelle Lingiuan: question is will be get our lands and contents back too
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Land HACKED and then stolen! Celene Ballinger has this cababil
Land HACKED and then stolen! Celene Ballinger has this cabability apparently.
This occured at about 4AM est on Dec 4 2007.
I was on the land when all of a sudden I had no modify capabilities for my own objects. Well this was shortly after a lagging slow server connection. Then I notice I have 22 lindens for some land sale. Well it was the land I was currently on, Pennycat over 6700 sq m for 22 lindens? how? I did contact Linden labs via phone, then I was directed to make a abuse report. I hope it gets resolved, Question is the hacking? can they get into credit card accounts too? Also note I was NOT selling the land, was modifying the description of the land.
Montelli Vantelli of SL.
Michelle may get this land back!
Well Celene contacted me today and claimed that this situation was false she still had Michelles land and contents and that she now returns mistakes. She said she has been giving back land for 5 weeks now???? When I wrote this last night it was 2 or 3 days after Michelle contacted me and a few days after this happend to her. It would be spectacular if she got her land back after all this time and if she does, I will gladly correct this story.
If she has been giving back
If she has been giving back land for five weeks it highlights how widespread this problem is. How often is this happening? Really, there should be a warning about bots when you sell land, this has gone on for long enough.
Celene Ballinger is able to Hack and steal land as well.
Land HACKED and then stolen!
This occured at about 4AM est on Dec 4 2007.
I was on the land when all of a sudden I had no modify capabilities for my own objects. Well this was shortly after a lagging slow server connection. Then I notice I have 22 lindens for some land sale. Well it was the I was currently on, PennyCat over 6700 sq m for 22 lindens? how? I did contact Linden labs via phone, then I was directed to make a abuse report. I hope it gets resolved, Question is the hacking? can they get into credit card accounts too? Also note I was NOT selling the land, was modifying the description of the land.
Montelli Vantelli of SL.
land bots
The only thing I can think can be done withthe sale of land is a feature that lets the seller aprove the final sale of the land, but it would only let he seller one last chance to make sure they realdy want to sell the land at the set price.
Good Deal!
That bot got a good deal! What needs to be understood is that the set person buying it is there for a reason. Expecting LL to tell you about every little thing that could happen in SL is ridiculous.
Glad we also got to see some of Sarah's usual twist mixed with alot of cursing. :)
Anyone close to me knows I
Anyone close to me knows I have a potty mouth. Should I have edited it out to better suit You? No one expects LL to warn about every little thing, but I do think it's very fair to ask for a warning or a delay in a situation where people stand to lose a lot of money. Seeing that you are creating bots, I can understand Your dislike of a warning in this situation.
That really isn't nice, Bob
Frankly, you're beginning to smell funny.
Second Life Consultant
Do I feel bad for Michelle?
Do I feel bad for Michelle? Yes, definitely. Do I feel sad that Celene is the only bot owner that doesn't return mistakenly sold land? Yes definitely.
The option to sell land to a specific avatar is there, why don't people use it?
Now it's all about the bots and how they move in quickly and buy up land. What if they were doing the sale as described above and a non bot owner popped up on an adjecent lot to check it out, noticed the land for sale and grabbed it before their friend could? Same result, same problem.
When selling land, you set the price, you set to whom you're willing to sell, you press enter and then you get another pop up warning that shows whom you're possibly selling and for what price. Do we need more warnings?
I'm not a fan of bots and I'm not a fan of LL keeping their hands of things. I'm all in favor of having a delay introduced before land is publicly available or findable through search when set to sell to anyone.
I suppose it's one of the drawbacks of working with mainland - I've yet to see the first bot working privately owned islands.
ServMe Nakamura
virtualSecond CEO
A handful of people...
keep saying the same things you do about the interface, etc.
A larger amount of people suffer the problem.
The delay really is the best solution.
Second Life Consultant
Delay is not a fix at all...
The delay will only fudge the market and is not a fix at all. What happens if there is a 5 min delay but you wait 6 min, or maybe someone watching sees it? Same issue. The way to fix this issue is by creating a "Transfer Land" function for all the people who do not take the time to READ into what they are doing. Basically it will be just like a land sale but worded differently for all the noobs who think that ANYONE means XYZ avatar. I do feel bad for all the people who lost land in this manner, but seriously... the reply is always "I didn't think it could happen!" Time to start THINKING people, wake up a bit and pay attention to what you are doing. It is not the bots that are the problem... it you not THINKING. If bots didn't exist I can guarantee that a human controlled AV would have swooped in 2 seconds later anyways. People who get into car wrecks do not think enough to control their automobile in a safe manner... people who loose land for $1L do not think enough to control their virtual assets in a safe manner. If you put your paypal password online people will empty your account in seconds... why sell land for $1L to ANYONE ??? Really now??? Unfortunate learning experience, though I also believe that Linden should consider setting up some sort of arbitration policy for matters involving larger amounts of $L.
THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK
Heh.
You don't seem to know how landbots work, or how the land market works. A delay will only *delay* the market, which is perfectly fine and allows people breathing space while allowing bots to operate with almost no impact - unless they WANT the mistakes (is that what you are saying?).
I'd suggest you take your own advice. Think.
Second Life Consultant
Hmmz
Tell my bot that.
Aha.
So you're one of the folks who likes getting people's mistakes/land sale errors through software.
Obviously that would mean you wouldn't like the solution. ;-)
Tell your bot that I'll sell it island plots and reclaim them. That's perfectly fine according to the ToS. Come, give me your money. Or are you just someone hiding behind a bot?
Ahh. I thought so.
Second Life Consultant
Well....
This reminds me of something similar to identity theft. It's almost like laying your wallet around and expecting someone not to take it. Often times we rely on the powers that be to save us from ourselves and to no avail, it usually leaves us with a sour taste in our mouths.
While I doubt Linden Labs will institute the delay, I think it is up to those of us that DO know to warn and warn and warn so our fellow residents don't fall victim to this. Personally, I did not know about land bots either until recently but I left mainland a LONG time ago after seeing just about enough of spinning naked women around my house....Actually, a strip club moved in next door.
Anywho, some how we should police ourselves on this and work together to get the awareness out without Linden Labs because I doubt they will help. They put the tool to sell to a specific user there so that is their "out." Another wake up call for them could be as many people as possible pulling from mainland and leaving the place dead until they put in some kind of structure.....
Woot I got my land back thanks Sarah!
Celene sold me back the land for the 1 linden that she paid, thank you for your help!! and my bad it was 1920 not 4096 but thank you thank you thank you!!! - Michelle Lingiuan
1920 or 4096...
1 Linden was still too low. Celene seems to be on a power trip. I had a quick discussion with her where she takes no accountability for her own actions - past or present.
I won't applaud that she did right. She should have done it in the first place and had to be shamed into doing it. Doom on her.
Second Life Consultant