August 13, 2007 by Nobody Fugazi
Posted in
OK, I've been pretty calm so far but I'm livid right now. Someone IM'd me and complained about WSE giving them WIC for selling their GPB. If that makes no sense to you, you will understand why I had to check. They told me that if I sold some shares, I would probably see.
What the hell? I don't have anything better to do with those worthless bonds, now was as good a time as any. I dropped all 183K of those silly 'perpetual bonds' to the market. Tossed to the wind. Sure, I got violated in a very fiscal sense, but I expected that.
What I did not expect was to see a Linden balance of 560 Linden dollars for my shares? What the? Then I saw this 'WIC balance' that didn't tell me what I could do with it. I didn't ask for these dumb WIC whatevers, I was just selling GPB so that I could cash out the Linden dollars. Why couldn't I just get Linden dollars? So I tried the World Internet Currency ATM link, and it was asking me for my WIC account name. I try 'Nobody Fugazi'. Not happening. I try it lower case. Not happening.
What are these sticky WIC things I don't want, and how do I get rid of them? Then something clicked.
It is just another way to screw people.
Then something else clicked.
Duh, of course it is another way to screw people.
Railroaded into these WICs, there was no obvious way to deal with them. Unlike some who become upset, I don't lose my reason - I get an intense focus. I teleported to WSE, just to see if there was someone who might have a clue about these things. No surprise. No one was there who could help. No WSE staff. Just some other folks trying to figure out the ATM and some idiot spamming me with notecards so I would take a loan at his bank - on WSE property.
Bad timing. If I wanted a loan, I'd probably fly where you live and beat it out of you. Since that is not legal and prison is not on my dayplanner, I don't want a loan. OK?
Calm. Breathe. 'You expected the WSE presence in SecondLife to be useless for this. You did your due diligence. Move on'.
Back to the website. A link to an Education Centre at the top. Sure, Big Bird and Cookie Monster might know something. I was wrong - Super Grover points from there to a link to What is the World Internet Currency? and, seeing my mood, lowers his helmet and flies off. Buried under the fertilizer about fictional currency, a stab at intelligence without wisdom by WSE, I make my way through enough marketing phrases to choke a petite marketing representative.
WICS to Linden Dollars
You can buy Linden Dollars using your WICS by visiting the WIC Exchange ATM located at Hope Capital Island in Second Life. For a direct teleport please visit the ATM Locations page in the Education Centre.
USING THE FICTIONAL WORLD INTERNET CURRENCY IS SUBJECT TO THE TERMS OF SERVICE BY WIC EXCHANGE PTY. LTD LOCATED AT WWW.WICEXCHANGE.COM
Well, first of all boyo, I didn't agree to the Terms of Service when Ginko funds were transferred to GPB. I spit on those Terms of Service. If I had drank more coffee, I would urinate on them. I am not here voluntarily, as so many others are not here voluntarily. The fact is that no one who had their Ginko Financial account tranferred to these silly bonds wants to be here and no one voluntarily accepted those terms of service. Given the options of 'lose all money' or 'use the site', well - gee thanks for the shotgun at my head.
So I looked around, and to the right of the main WSE ATM is a diminutive ATM which doesn't stand out that much. I touched it, and it sends me to register on another site - on to wicexchange.com - which after filling out my personal information regarding PayPal (which I really did not want to give to these people), I got logged in to find... oops. No balance.
Of course, it makes no sense for me to have to transfer from one site to another... such idiocy... but I did because, hey, I have 130.37 of these stupid WICs and I want my money. So I go back to the World Internet Currency ATM link and transfer my funds to the OTHER site - but guess what? I can't transfer the 0.37 WIC. Why not? No good reason, they're just trying to get a stellar review from me. Are they doing good so far?
Then I try to use the ATM inworld to get Linden dollars - you know, the things which I've been trying to get for half an hour or so - and it gives me a pop up dialog of Linden dollar amounts to buy. It's really simple to me. I want 130 WICs cashed out to Lindens.
This should NOT be difficult. So I try typing a few numbers I come up with after researching what a WIC might be worth. That doesn't work, no surprise that the ATM doesn't work as expected. What are my other options?
Sell to PayPal directly. FINE. I do that. So, let's recap:
I sold to market and got WICs with Lindens. I didn't want the WICs. I have a very vivid idea of what WSE should do with those WICs. There was no option that I saw which said 'limit sales to people who have Linden dollar buy orders'. It's a trap among many traps that people who got stuck with GPBs have fallen into, and the best way to describe it is rather visual and may give people nightmares.
Then to get rid of the WICs, you cannot transfer percentages. So they sit there.
Lukeconnell Vandeverre, you owe me 0.37 WICs converted to Linden dollars.
The whole thing is a minefield of what can only be described as a purposeful way of irritating people and fleecing them at every opportunity - from the percentage on the sell order itself, to getting stuck with Luke's made-up-barter-currency to giving them my personal information (changing my PayPal information because I don't TRUST these people)...
What should have taken me about 2 minutes to do took me about 45 minutes to do. Why? Is this something which is supposed to garner good faith? If so, it is as misdirected as just about anything else I can find.
As far as I'm concerned, any fees I paid WSE or wicexchange.com were stolen. The sign over WSE should say, "Here There Be Muggers, Pickpockets and All Manner of Thieves". I was mugged, and other people have been and will continue to be mugged either by incompetence or a complete lack of ethics. Right now, I think it could be both.
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Complain
For better or worse, complain. File an abuse report. Explain as clearly as possible that the fees amount to theft to you because you did not agree to the transaction. File another one for the conversion to GPBs. And another for the fraud at Ginko that started this. I know that a lot of people are doing this now, and I suspect that critical mass will trigger some kind of response - even if that response is just a press release clarifying Linden Lab's position. They need to know.
Hands off government is great, but not when you're allowing activity that is very likely prohibited by law to take place under your nose. That's why gambling is gone, of course, and if I was given a choice of debate topics, I'd rather defend the legality of gambling (a way long shot) than the legality of anything associated with Ginko from about July 29th on (a no-shot, imo).
There's not enough space in an abuse report form. :-)
I make it a habit not to disclose whether I have filed an abuse report or not.
The main space for abuse reports is really on the web. Why? When they hit critical mass on the web, then Linden Lab does something - and not only that, there is a more transparent process.
The abuse report system is something which Linden Lab needs to address for reasons myself and others have written ad nauseam. That those who are more visible to the mainstream media don't pick up on these things (not you at all, Benjamin) is part of the problem.
And in my eyes, I believe people portraying themselves as media who are not part of the solution are a part of the problem - perhaps the largest part of the problem.
True that.
True, the web is the best place for it. But I do think that there's got to be some metrics kept on ARs internally, and if they get a 5000% increase in claims of a particular sort, that gets pushed up a desk or two. I freely admit I may be dreaming here, but I'd still do it.
What I have learned...
is that whatever I would expect Linden Lab to do is not necessarily so, and in that way they are a dysfunctional black box.
Flooding ARs will cause a lot of notice to a department which probably has nothing to do with the policy issues. It's sort of like beating up someone's teddy bear in the hope that they send milk and cookies.
Since there are no clear violations of ToS in all of this (and as you noted, the ban on gambling isn't in the ToS, as an example) - the ARs will probably be sent to dev/null (trash), especially with a high volume - mainly because there is someone with a tinfoil hat running around griefing people, or some other nonsense.
It is worth a shot, but what is pretty demonstrable is that if Reuters writes about it, in 2-3 months Linden Lab writes something ambiguous about it. Since Reuters already wrote about it, I'm expecting the ambiguous statement in about... November 2007.
Sooner
I think we get the policy clarification/press release sooner. Not that I think it'll me a big difference, but I expect to see something sooner rather than later. There's just too much pressure on it.
You're likely right about the ARs. It's funny, we don't even have transparency there. Me? I'd send them though. There's another reason, actually. If someone reports it to LL, and they do nothing, you've got a (slightly) stronger argument against them if it ever came to that. But the best reason is the straightforward one - if you think you've had something stolen in world, as you say you do, that's the right response.
Actually...
There it is:
http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/08/14/the-second-life-economy/#more-1144
That's about banks...
not stock exchanges and alternate 'fictional' currencies.
Different. Related, but different.
commissions / mugging
so... if i read this right
i buy shares in lindens, wse makes 3.5%, i sell those share, i get WIC's, WSE makes a commission of 3.5% on the shares i just sold. I convert those from WIC to linden, WSE makes some obfuscated commission of about 10% to convert them to linden.
So every share i trade has to make 17% profit?
When WSE/hope capital/Ginko trades shares internaly, does it pay the fees, or is it getting an effect 17% inside market edge?
I think i will go ahead now and IPO on WSE, i am sure my future shareholders would just be rushing to enjoy those fees (did you spot the sarcasm).
I do think though its prettty obvious what the profit model is here tho
its
(a) inside trading
(b) fees off those outside
On the subject of a perpetual bond that takes 4 years to mature. Will SL be here in 4 years?
Regardless of how many layeres of currency obfuscation you put on them, i dont see how that makes a legal difference as to whether its a currency or a barter coin, Both of which are taxable. If it's a game why call it a 'bank' and not a 'hooobley house of fine gemstones' and if its not a currency exchange why not call it 'the great alazhamas carpet bazaar'. If you are passing off as a bank, you are a bank. If it tastes like chicken, its chicken.
Speaking as someone responsible for a SL business, and R/L ecommerce. I am just appalled by this whole .. scam.
Zal.
p.s I run "a virtual sub-license to an percieved occupied render in 3 dimensional space of some objects which may or may not be visible on an end users display device. Any such resemblance to a house is purely coincidental, by the nature of being able to breathe you have accepted the terms and conditions that all Air belongs to me and in the future may or may not be chargeable at 2.75 ZIC's per exhale. breathing in "now called Z-in-ing" is ofcourse free but in no way is real"
WIC is the ex-game game
WIC is the ex-game game currency. In other words, yet another layer of 'barter currency' between you and your L$ or USD. In theory, what it allows for his people not affiliated with second life to trade second life securities. What it really does is allow an extra layer of commissions.
I am unable to tell if WIC is related to WSE... parent company maybe? And further, I am unable to tell if Mr Ginko gets a cut of that commission.
I'm aware of what WIC is...
However, I was not aware that I would be getting it when I sold the GBP; it was told to me but I really didn't see how it could happen. It seems intuitively wrong, so when I tried it, there it was.
Further, if I get WIC for GPB shares, then WSE is definitely linked to WIC. I don't see where the discussion of that is. And since WSE is owned by HCL, and Nicholas Portocarrero owns 9 million and 1 shares of HCL - yes, he does get a cut through a dividend and valuation of shares (if that happens).
I never consented to use of WIC. I never agreed that I wanted WIC. I never asked for WIC.
Now you can go back and forth about what WIC is, but to the average person it is quite apparent what WIC is, and what anyone calls it doesn't change what it actually is.
Per their site, it looks
Per their site, it looks like they plan to go 100% WIC. We should factor those extra commissions in when we discuss how much Nic Ponzicarrero is taking his victims for.
And per Wic exchange's
And per Wic exchange's site:
"© Copyright 2007 - WIC Exchange Pty Limited (ACN 124 657 790). Produced in assosciation with Hope Capital."
Sheesh
You'd think they could afford a spellchecker. :-)
WTF
If they are making you cash out at WIC thats a bunch of bull$hit. I'm sure there are fee's on the WIC to withdraw your money to paypal or something. If this is the case we need to all fire a lawsuit against WSE. If you pay them with L$ they need to cash you out in L$.
this would be like in RL you boss saying here's your paycheck & when you open it is 500 dollars of McDonalds gift certificates. If they are making us cash out onto a completely diff system we need a grid wide protest on the WSE.
Nowhere was it stated GPB's have to be cashed out to WIC. This is just another way for LUKe to confuse GPB holders etc. noobs 1st can't even figure how to log onto the WSE. Now they go to go thru this whole other system to get back maybe say 500L$ they had into Ginko.
If I was a company listed on WSE I wouldn't want to be on there. I would delsit my company & move onto a diff exchange that isn't trying to confuse thousands of people of how to get their funds back. Kind of seems like Luke is doing this to avoid taxes or something. Send you money thru a big circle & finally get it back in monopoly money.
ThaBiGGDoGG Richez
CEO SLBC & BDG
Things going worse then ever...
The system WSE used is a way , as u told before, to pick up some more money from the already unlucky Ginko's customers, and a way to force the market to use that stupids Wics.
Im not use to reply or send posts but in these days Im really angry even if I've not a single L$ in Ginko's accounts. Cant imagine how do i feel If i had some GPB now:-(
Hope what BiGGDoGG told about WSE confusing and charging extra fees to Ginko's former customers could really lead to a big change in SL markets and a step forward for a reset and restart of the whole capital system.
As CEO of 3F Financial Services i tryied to unify efforts of some concerned and committed avatars to work together at a different stock market, owned and ruled by Traders and Investors.
Hope soon we will be able to make a call to every trader and avatar to collaborate and beeing co-founders of this Brand New RL styled Stock Exchange Market.
Domiziano Ferraris
CEO 3F Financial Services
I have no idea.
I did a standard market sell, and there were these WICs.
McDonald's certificates might have been better.
WIC$ x L$ - Obscure commissions
Some days ago I saw that lacked some L$ in my WSE account.
After a better check, I verified that was "rewarded" with 11.11 WIC$ (somebody bought some of my shares paying in WIC$).
But I didn't want such 11.11 WIC$.
Then I tried to change them for lindens without success. Same problem above.
I also saw that the exchange rate was of 1 WIC$ = 290.39 L$ (equivalent to 3226.23 lindens in my case).
Well, then I will make the same: I will buy some shares using WIC$, with some "LUKE", to sell them receiving lindens in exchange.
After some research, I found a company quoted @ 0.19 L$(equivalent to 0.000654 WIC$) in the wich I could buy 16980 shares (11.11/0.000654).
Concluded the operation, I saw that in my portfolio were 15260 shares instead of 16980 (and balance in WIC$ = 0.0).
Conclusion: there is probably an obscure commission of 10% when you exchange WIC$ to L$ (10.13% in my case).
PS: I sold all the 15260 receiving only lindens in exchange! Lucky again.
I'm not surprised
The only info I found on relationship between WSE and WIC is here:
http://www.sloz.info/2007/06/01/world-stock-exchange-expands-partners-wi...
Add that to the interview that site did with Vandeverre:
http://www.sloz.info/2007/08/05/interview-two-lukeconnell-vandeverre-wor...
And nothing surprises me.
Jimbo Diag