Ginko Financial Withdrawal Limits Raised to 10,000 Linden
14 hours ago I wrote about the 5,000 withdrawal limit Ginko Financial had imposed; a recent check showed that the new withdrawal limit is 10,000 Lindens.
The Ginko Financial Website is also reporting this, but interestingly is not keeping track of what the withdrawal limit was; a previous post was edited with the new withdrawal limit.
This increase in the withdrawal limit demonstrates that the run on the bank itself may be on the downswing. While there has been some speculation as to whether this was related to Linden Lab's new policy on gambling, it might be interesting to consider that the run on the bank could have been tied to WSE ATMs being down for about 5 days, during which time tier payments and other costs might have needed to be paid. Ginko Financial's ATM is on the WSE floor.
Perhaps the withdrawal limit will increase again tomorrow. We shall see.
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Insignificant
Don't read too much into this. Last night they raised it to 25,000 in the middle of the night, and dropped it back during the day (and there again, they erased this fact from the site, so you probably didn't see it).
Also remember, the cap was originally L$300,000, so we're talking, in real dollars, about it being dropped from $1100 USD to $19 USD, and now being back up to $38 USD, so I'm not sold on the idea that this demonstrates the downswing is over, though I suppose we'll see tomorrow.
The total deposited (which I now believe has little if any correlation to Ginko's actual assets, but is useful for tracking withdrawals) has been steadily dropping all night, from 193,343,850 at 9:30 SLT, to 193,048,699 at 1:30 AM SLT. The withdrawals amount to around L$ 500,000 over four hours, but somebody increased it by 200k in what looks like one transaction around 10:30 SLT. I'm guessing that was another short term secured loan (for a much smaller amount than before) that has been artificially reported as a "deposit," but I don't really know; maybe somebody felt like depositing US $700 tonight. You think so?
Could be true...
That could be true...
IPOP2 Business Directory
Hard to tell by the numbers.
Despite what many think, Ginko Financial does have an established name and that may tide them through. A 200,000 L deposit could be someone who has money in Ginko already and trusts them. It could be a short term loan marked as a deposit - but then, aren't all deposits to banks de facto loans?
The proactive changes to withdrawal limits demonstrate that Ginko is trying to raise the limits within it's ability to do so.
Deposit Not = Loan
Deposits are unsecured. If that's what this really was (along with the other 4 million I've seen come in like this in the last 36 hours), then it is reasonable to increase the "Total Deposits" number when the deposits hit.
If the L$4.2m was given as secured loans though -- secured against Ginko assets, like Nicholas said he was seeking -- then it is not reasonable to increase the "Total Deposits" number when it hits.
My belief is that those "deposits" are really secured loans, because I don't think that one person gave Ginko US$12,000, another US$4,000, and another US$700 over the last 36 hours -- in the middle of a bank run, now going on its third day when people are only allowed to withdraw $20-$40 a day -- without making making it a secured loan.
The reason the distinction really does matter and isn't just some meaningless numbers game is that the "Total Deposit" number on Ginko's website would be 188m rather than 192m right now (and probably a whole lot lower than that, b/c I seriously doubt the three times I've seen this happen were the only three times this has happened in the history of the company) if this had been done honestly/right.
That number is about the only piece of information they give the public, so it's pretty important that it not be based on lies. It should be a number that would, right now, tell people at a glance that L6m had been taken out of Ginko in the last 48 hours. Instead, the number actively hides that fact -- by making it look like there were deposits that didn't happen. And that, I'm arguing, is either fraud if they know what they're doing, or negligent if they don't.
well...
By definition, a loan is giving someone something and getting it back.
By all intents and purposes, when you deposit money into a bank it is a loan - secured or not. The bank uses the money for investments, and pays the person who made the deposit a bit of interest based on the return on investment. It requires a flip in perspective to realize this, as culture has taught us that only banks can give loans...
But we do it everyday. Every day is a negotiation of trust with things related to finance. Simply logging onto the internet and browsing websites is a loan of the user's time and attention. The sites that give the best return on investment in the perspective of the user are the ones which they visit most. Large groups of people dictate whether a site is successful - it works... oddly, like a bank.
So if we flip perspective on this, where every person is a bank and institutions such as Ginko Financial are debtors... we place the user, the customer, in charge. And large groups of silly people really do run the world, which scares the heck out of sane people. No wonder this perspective isn't used often. :-)
Yeah, I get what you're saying...
I get what you're saying but the distinction I'm drawing -- between unsecured loans, which yes, would included deposits, and secured loans, which wouldn't -- is important here. The first is rightly part of "total deposits" and the latter is better considered an investment made by the company (here, Ginko). Counting it wrong means that depositors are deceived about how much money they have.
Not sure about that.
Each depositor has access to their account and can tell how much money each individual has on hand. What the bank has on hand is, technically, a deposit.
I get what you're saying as well, and sure - there could be more data that is given - but again, if we're going to pick on one bank, we have to put everyone on trial. I think that we should do that. Perhaps that would be interesting to look at. ;-)
I would trust Ginko more than WSE
Have you noticed that corporate announcements keeps gettin deleted from the Accouncement Section of the wselive.com website.
Announcements that question luke's mangement of wse, the bug-ridden wse 3.0, the lack of disclosure or communication regarding the wse hacking/embezellment, the frozen accounts etc. these announcements get deleted from the system.
its funny how the only announcements left undeleted are those that make it seem like things are running smoothly.
This is not the first time i've noticed it on the WSE. just tonight 2 announcements disappeared in less than an hour after they were posted, one wasnt deleted by was removed from the top of the list u can still find it at:
http://www.wselive.com/research/announcement_detail/1989
the other was deleted but i'll re-post it here:
the url was: http://www.wselive.com/research/announcement_detail/2019
VHI concerned for it shareholders on the WSE
Submitted by: Valentine Heart Inc. (VHI)
Date: July 29, 2007
With the current problems on the WSE I feel that all trading should be STOPPED at once. I have been IMed by 2 of my major share holders about problems they are having. 1. Mystik Boucher's account has been frozen by the WSE & 2 Marston Davids account has a negative balance of more the -45,000L$ after taking an open buy order off at 10L$ with more then 2500 share to buy. That is also a loss of 25,000L$ for a total of 70,000L$ lost in the wse website. Investor Merlin's account was frozen. My own account was frozen because of a hack adding over L$9,874,242 to my balance. I have posted all info over to the Lindens to ask them to look into this, Robin Linden: "Hey Bart. I'm in a meeting. I'm going to pass your message on to the folks here who are looking into the WSE complaints."
I'm very concerned with what is going on in the WSE and the lack of communication from Luke except for comments like this: LukeConnell Vandeverre: "I've just created a fantastic site and your still at me just cause your account was effected by the hack." The WSELIVE.com website is bugged and all trading should be halted. I'm requesting the halt of trading of VHI till this matter with the website is fixed. I will copy the share holders on the hour or when I notice shares have been traded but can not guarantee the accuracy of anything on the WSE website at this point. LukeConnell Vandeverre: "My first priority was to achieve the deployment, now we can fix a few accounts that were messed up by him." Thurston had Modification rights to WSE Huet and this should have never been since the ATM's were fully copy and mod. Who's fault is the problems on the WSE site now? Halt trading til the site works. This is not the way to run a business. This may be FICTIONAL MONEY, but it has Real Dollar value and the WIC proves that. Also take me off as a board member for HCL like you said you would on friday. LukeConnell Vandeverre: "fair enough, well its clear you have lost confidence in the WSE and therefore it is best you don't stay with a service you dont like." LukeConnell Vandeverre: "I have removed you from the board of directors as you no longer support this company and its operations. Your account will be fixed and you will be free to take a copy of your shareholder list and free to move to another exchange." I have never stated that I dont support the WSE it has given everyone great opportunities. I do lack the confidence I used to have in it. I AM NOT MOVING TO ANOTHER EXCHANGE AT THIS TIME. I just want to protect my investors at this time. I'm not sure who I can trust in SL since the WSE was going to be the "financial hub of second life." I would like the VHI stock to be halted at this time until WSELIVE.COM is fixed to protect my shareholders.
Bart Heart CEO
Valentine Heart Inc.
VHI is doing great in SL we have 8 sims now, and one sim has been rented by Virginia Tech one year. Feel free to IM me with any questions or concerns about VHI or anything else I can help you with.
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what kind of management censors corporate announcements, judge for urself.
As for Ginko, it maybe a scheme but its not a scam. The risks were clear from the start.
This sounds serious.
I'll be looking into this, Bart. Thanks for the heads up. If you want a blog here, btw, just ping me in world. Y2P has free blogs for business and groups so announcements can be made independently. The only general guideline so far is to keep the titles PG-rated; RSS feeds in world might be in PG areas.
sorry it wasnt Bart
it wasnt Bart posting, am not involved personally but i was annoyed when i noticed alot of censorship going on. what type of stock exchange would censor corporate announcement of the listed companies.
I run my own business in sl, i actually work full time in SL, never needed to raise money, but thats the nature of the business i run as a content creator.
CEOs should decide if this is what they really want for their business. No disclosure and poor communication. if they want to be gamed or require a full disclosure.