October 2, 2008 by Ciaran Laval
Posted in
So it came to pass that a giant monster was unleashed on the mainland, not in the shape of a 16M parcel as first feared, but in the shape of those whom now want to shape the mainland in their image.
Jack Linden's office hour tonight was arguably the ugliest office hour since Jack's last office hour. Those who sense victory on the ad farm issue, whom have largely achieved their goal now have a bigger goal and it's one I'm extremely uncomfortable with.
Instead of thanking Linden Lab for cleaning up the mainland, they now want more, this isn't an Oliver Twist type more, this is the screaming tantrum style more of a child who can't get his own way. The meeting at times descended into schoolboy farce with name calling and threats of abuse reports being submitted by one member of the audience if someone used the word "Extortion", whilst another person was threatened with being sent outside the classroom by Jack himself. All we needed was a threat of detention and the picture would have been complete.
The aim now of some is to have all 16M parcels wiped from the landscape, or, if they must persist, to be sold only for a fair market value. The question of to whom was never quite answered but I suspect there's plenty of self interest going on here.
I'm not a fan of 16M parcels, I've purchased some recently near my land and joined them, they're currently designated as empty spaces with their prim allotment used elsewhere on the sim. I won't pay over the odds for a 16M parcel and now with the elmination of the use of "adverts" and banlines, nor should anyone else. There's no longer a need to buy back the view. That was always the argument, these parcels spoiled the view. Now that that argument has been won the new argument is that 16M parcels spoil full stop.
What exactly they spoil I'm not quite sure. I can see the argument when they've been used for deception, a house put over them on a parcel set for sale and then the new land owner finds a gaping 16M hole in his ideal parcel and the price is bumped up. However that's a lot different to spitting your dummy because a parcel adjacent to your plot is set for sale for L$9999. Simply don't buy it, what harm is it doing to you? If you're so wound up about the mere existence of an empty 16M plot then you really need to take a step back and have a nice cup of tea.
However there's an ugly underbelly to this, the word "profit" is deemed a dirty word. People shouldn't be allowed to profit so much. Now that the most loathsome extortion techniques have been taken away, then yes, market forces can do their job. Limiting the price that people are allowed to set parcels for sale for is an absurd notion. One that Linden Lab surely can't agree with because Bay City parcels went for a song.
There is also the forthcoming space station of Mos Ainsley that you can visit now. A new concept and one that is sure to generate healthy interest. Market forces will dictate the price the land goes for. I felt Bay City was overpriced, Mos Ainsley will probably be out of my league too but I won't demand that the parcels are sold to me at a cheap rate. That's not how it should work.
Jack also mentioned that machinma premieres will soon be being shown in the theatre in Bay City, which is fair enough, there's no point in having a picture house if it's not going to be used. I'm sure some will find this a little off and complain that Linden Lab are giving better value to a certain area but the theatre was there from the start and always likely to be used for such purposes.
Those now complaining that the price of 16M parcels is so expensive that it ruins their Second Life experience need to consider where they're going with this, it's a dangerous road to tread and should have no place in a world such as Second Life. Content creators were not too happy when Anshe wanted to lower the prices of items, the market dictates those prices too, we don't need price controls, vote with your wallet.
Jack needs to retain control of this beast before it spirals completely out of control. Now is a time to take a breath, enjoy the view and see what develops. If extortionists find new ways to abuse their neighbours, then Jack should consider taking action, but right now he needs to get back in the driving seat. Price controlling how much a resident can set a parcel for sale for is not an area Jack should be involved in and people shouldn't expect him to take on that role either.
One of the big selling points of Second Life is that it can mean different things to different people, if Jack allows that notion to get hijacked to too great an extent then he's risking one of the core veins of this virtual world, he simply has to prevent that from happening.
It's time to be strong Jack.
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16m parcels
It is important that the 4m parceling size stays, if you look at fermi sandbox there are a number of spots where we use that size, but in streches and as a part of a larger parcel, but you have to be able to get there from here. Getting rid of it, would break fermi sandbox and a number of other places that use parcel sizes that are small for legit reasons. This is killing a fly with a sledgehammer.
Start lobbying
Linden Lab are planning on doing something about parcel cutting. Too many people refuse to look at the bigger picture when making their complaints. They don't consider the consequence of what they're doing, it's why I asked about rental boxes, because they technically fit into the criteria of advertising. They would appear to be exempt but the fact that I even had to ask the question is due to narrow minded policy decisions.
The same goes for the adverts, NCI were concerned about the policy when they aren't causing problems.
The TOS can be applied in many ways, there's no need for all these transparent policy changes, we all know when a 16M parcel is being abused and when it's being used as intended.
Fairly typical hysterical Ciaran blog...
As usual, you grossly misrepresent what people are saying and asking to make your own histrionics sound more shrill. I guess I shouldn't expect more from a vanity blog (as opposed to responsible journalism), though.
>Those who sense victory on the ad farm issue, whom have largely achieved their goal now have a bigger goal and it's one I'm extremely uncomfortable with.
No, we've had the SAME goals since we started. We're not asking for more than we ever asked for; Linden Lab is not (yet) fulfilling all the things we have asked for, is all.
The problem was ALWAYS extortion. (and yes, an empty plot set at a ridiculous price IS extortion, by the very definition of the word: "A gross overcharge"). In the past, it was COERCED with ADDITIONAL forms of harassment, but strategically cut and priced plots are no less harassing (and effective, for the great majority of people who deal with them) than if there was a brightly lit flashing 200m sign on them.
>Instead of thanking Linden Lab for cleaning up the mainland, they now want more, this isn't an Oliver Twist type more, this is the screaming tantrum style more of a child who can't get his own way.
Again, we ALWAYS asked for what we asked for, nothing more, nothing less.
>The aim now of some is to have all 16M parcels wiped from the landscape, or, if they must persist, to be sold only for a fair market value. The question of to whom was never quite answered but I suspect there's plenty of self interest going on here.
Nope. Not even close. Microparcels are fine AS LONG AS THEY AREN'T BEING USED FOR EXTORTION OR HARASSMENT. Sure, there is self-interest. That's a priori about the whole damned thing, or didn't you notice? People started this fight to clean up the messes around and in THEIR land, AS WELL AS everyone else's land who felt similarly. Yes, I DO want the holes in my land gone, just as I support you for wanting the ones in YOUR land gone, too. Yes, I DO want all the parasitic advertisers GONE from my region. FOREVER. I want the assholes who have been threatening and harassing me repeatedly for months BANNED PERMANENTLY. Yeah, I HAVE ARed them. More times than I care to count. However, when they do it with LAND, LL doesn't seem to see it the same way as physically being there. You CAN harass someone quite a bit with a microparcel.
>There's no longer a need to buy back the view. That was always the argument, these parcels spoiled the view. Now that that argument has been won the new argument is that 16M parcels spoil full stop.
No, it was never "the" argument. It was ONE of "the" argumentS. Stop mischaracterizing what people have said.
>What exactly they spoil I'm not quite sure. I can see the argument when they've been used for deception, a house put over them on a parcel set for sale and then the new land owner finds a gaping 16M hole in his ideal parcel and the price is bumped up. However that's a lot different to spitting your dummy because a parcel adjacent to your plot is set for sale for L$9999. Simply don't buy it, what harm is it doing to you? If you're so wound up about the mere existence of an empty 16M plot then you really need to take a step back and have a nice cup of tea.
No, it's not a lot different at all. It still is a form of harassment, and is most definitely extortion. Sure, don't buy it. If you want to expand your land, though, pay the extortion tax. Eventually, with enough people doing this, there won't be a single sim anywhere on the mainland which won't be peppered with extortion landmines. When one sim's worth of tier can despoil up to 140.8 sims of mainland (that's 1 16sqm extortion plot for every 512sqm plot on those regions), it doesn't take a whole lot of tier and extortionists together to pretty much wipe out the entire mainland. That's 35 sims' worth of strategically placed extortion plots to ruin 5000 sims of mainland. Not too shabby, considering that, with the prices at L$5000 per 16, you can make a fortune and afford to expand at the same time. Sure, it's easy to say "just don't buy it", but there are PLENTY of people out there who feel compelled to pay those prices to recover the holes and corners and whatever else is hacked out of their plots. "So don't buy ones with holes or corners cut out!" Yah, well duh, but when there is more and more land every day that is turning into this crap, it becomes harder and harder to find good land, and god forbid you EVER hoping to expand in an area; you'll have to sell out and buy a NEW plot somewhere else every time you want to even THINK about expanding, because, as time goes on, the odds of you getting a plot with a hole cut out of it next to you increase, and can increase dramatically if you are in any way active on your land. Yeah, the extortionists see that, too. They watch. They know what is a good mark, and what is a bad one. It is nothing more than simple CON ARTISTRY.
We've been educating everyone we can FOR MONTHS, and people STILL buy multiples of these things per day. Not to mention that those trying to do everything they can (at their own EXPENSE, I might add) to HEAL the effin' mainland, it's a travesty to have to put up with the BS these people dish out day after day, and to see our hard work ruined when the assholes come back and do it to another adjacent parcel. So what do we end up doing? Buying up every parcel nearby, whether we need it or not, to make sure that it isn't sacrificed to these wastes of flesh.
It also begs the question: if having empty 16sqm microparcels will limit extortion, then why did Austin Hallard's and Prince/Rvu/Rn/Denideny/Deny's plot extortion "businesses" grow explosively since February? They never put anything on their plots, but they sure seem to have no trouble devastating the mainland with their unethical practices.
No, there is more to it than simply the adfarming parts. They were only a part of the problem, and even this latest effort won't stop the practice of extortion. There's simply no deterrent for it, and every reason to continue. I mean, really, why shouldn't I (rhetorically) go into the microparcel extortion business? People make enough money to afford multiple sims' worth of monthly tier and have plenty left over to cash out every month as well as expand! I must be in the wrong business. I guess I should sell my mall, hang up my scripter's hat and jump right in and start cutting microparcels. I am sure Elanthius and the other landbot agents will be more than happy to buy up my worthless cuts when I dump them, leaving the L$5000-L$20000 kernels behind as my "tax" on mainland land use. People will pay it, too. They always do.
Further why shouldn't ANYBODY do it? Maybe I will write a book "How to Get Rick Quick in Second Life Extorting Landowners with Tiny Tracts of Virtual Land". Send it out via spam email or something. Just think of all the gold digging opportunists showing up and jumping right in with their US$10/month investments carving away, being as antisocial as possible to get people to pay the extortion (you do realize that antisocial behavior is part of the formula, right?). So what? Be a dick to everyone; it just makes them pay up faster! Oh, and don't worry about the Lindens; they'll never do ANYTHING substantial about it; hell, we even have residents rooting for absolute landowner and anarcho-capitalist "free market" rights to make sure we can make hay under a Forever Sun!
Of course, who says that scenario isn't already playing out in some form? Sure looks like a LOT of new names out there, hacking up 512s into checkerboards (saw one a couple weeks ago in the act; a Japanese fellow, who didn't understand a lick of English, but did understand numbers, and when we would type numbers he would change the checkerboard square under our feet to that value, unless it was too cheap, then he would raise it in spite).
>However there's an ugly underbelly to this, the word "profit" is deemed a dirty word. People shouldn't be allowed to profit so much. Now that the most loathsome extortion techniques have been taken away, then yes, market forces can do their job. Limiting the price that people are allowed to set parcels for sale for is an absurd notion. One that Linden Lab surely can't agree with because Bay City parcels went for a song.
It's not about "profit", it's about "fraud". Extortion is a form of fraud, perpetrated on another person through malicious intent and/or force, either directly or indirectly. It is TRIVIAL to prove that the vast majority of overpriced microparcels were specifically intended to extort. Hell, I have CHAT LOGS of the extortionists themselves admitting to it! They know PRECISELY what they are doing. They are completely and totally unabashed about it. "I can do it, so it must be right! HAHAHA! PAY UP, SUCKA!"
What is really doing a disservice to the mainland and the Lindens is mischaracterizing the effort to clean it up as a "land grab", or an attack on "landowners' rights" or some rubbish about abridging the "Free Market". It is no such thing. Just like any "right" (though within SL, everything is a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT), when you abuse it, you *SHOULD* lose it.
I don't have any problems with people who own and use land legitimately, even buy, sell, and trade land legitimately. I am good with the market working out most issues, except for ones that it simply can not, by the very nature of the thing being traded. Microparcels have a disproportionate amount of effect on surroundings for their size than larger parcels. They also are orders of magnitude cheaper when that effect is considered than a standard-sized plot (256-512sqm+). As such, they make the perfect vehicle for abuse, harassment, and extortion.
There have been many suggestions about how to limit this effectiveness, from making microplots cost the same tier as a 512sqm plot per region (or for each), to limiting the size of land that can be cut down to, to limiting the minimum size of plot that can be sold period. All of these suggestions are fraught with problems, and sticky issues for existing and valid owners of microplots. There is, however, a much simpler and easier solution that fixes the problem once and for all: simply ban the ones who are causing the damage and perpetrating the fraud. It's not hard to take a look at a land owner's land profile and see what he is doing. If all he owns (across all his alts) are hundreds to thousands of microparcels set for ridiculous prices, ban him. Reclaim the land. Done. Next. The policy is simple: Microparcel extortion (like any other form of fraud) will not be tolerated. Linden Lab will determine whether or not each individual is compliant, based on an analysis of their land buying/selling and cutting practices.
I would love to have a hard and fast rule, but I think that this represents it well enough to be both functional and effective. In MMOs, there aren't thousands of rules to cover every kind of cheating imaginable; there's just one rule: don't cheat; if you are caught cheating, you will lose your stuff and get banned. People know what cheating is. It's not hard to catch it and punish for it. Land extortion is no different.
I also would ask for a Land Grievance review board of some kind be set up to mediate disputes with land between landowners. I certainly don't think that a microparcel owner should be able to control what a larger, surrounding landowner does with his land, but that's what donut holes do, regardless of how they got there. Note I *DID* say "Microparcels", not "Standard Parcels". A 256-512sqm+ plot in the middle of a much larger plot would be exempt from any consideration of coercion. The mediation would require negotiation in good faith between the parties, where all options to work out their differences are explored before LL renders a judgment on what will be done. That includes parcel swaps, price agreement, and any other consideration. However, in the end, both parties should come out no less for their troubles.
That's the way it works in RL, and it is a good model to follow. It has a lot of tried-and-true case history behind it, too. It also gives incentive for both parties to work it out between themselves, because one or the other party will probably not like what LL decides if they otherwise fail to negotiate in good faith.
>Those now complaining that the price of 16M parcels is so expensive that it ruins their Second Life experience need to consider where they're going with this, it's a dangerous road to tread and should have no place in a world such as Second Life. Content creators were not too happy when Anshe wanted to lower the prices of items, the market dictates those prices too, we don't need price controls, vote with your wallet.
I think we have already been down the "worst" road possible, and need to stay on the road to recovery by NOT letting go of the yoke and watching the wagon roll backwards down into the same damn pit we've worked so hard to get out of at this point.
Price controls on items is an absurd notion. There's no artificial or real scarcity of items, and the market is quite capable of moderating prices for them. However, land has several levels of restriction and scarcity involved, and that is why it is critical that it be actively managed and regulated. As such, the two concepts are not analogous with one another to exemplify a reason to not do so.
>Jack needs to retain control of this beast before it spirals completely out of control. Now is a time to take a breath, enjoy the view and see what develops. If extortionists find new ways to abuse their neighbours, then Jack should consider taking action, but right now he needs to get back in the driving seat. Price controlling how much a resident can set a parcel for sale for is not an area Jack should be involved in and people shouldn't expect him to take on that role either.
Until the unbalanced extortion power of microparcels themselves are limited in some way, I don't see any other way except for LL to prohibit behavior and practice judicious and prudent use of the banhammer for those who just don't "get it". If that ends up being pricing controls, I can live with it, even as a Concierge customer. I have no need to gouge anyone with land, so I would never run afoul of any kind of price controls anyway.
>One of the big selling points of Second Life is that it can mean different things to different people, if Jack allows that notion to get hijacked to too great an extent then he's risking one of the core veins of this virtual world, he simply has to prevent that from happening.
One thing Second Life was never meant to be was a "land of anarchy and free-for-all screwing your neighbors". It's right there in the ToS as a set of core guiding principles. They've practiced temperance in the past against those who seek otherwise; I don't think they should restrain themselves from practicing it for this form of fraud and abuse, either.
>It's time to be strong Jack.
It's always been time to be strong; we've yet to really see much in the way of "strength", until now, and if we let up, we'll slide right back into the same damn pit. So, yes, Jack, it's time to be strong and see this through to its ultimate POSITIVE conclusion.
In the end, Ciaran, Freedom comes at the price of Responsibility. I wish I could get everyone to understand that, but some people just refuse. Usually because Responsibility just isn't profitable enough for them.
And Liberty...
Comes at the cost of vigilance.
Freedom doesn't really come at the price of responsibility. Responsibility is a prerequisite for freedom. The confusion is probably because few on the internet of these generations remember how Freedom was obtained.
Second Life Consultant
Another Virtual Communist.
Your comment is endless piece of bullshit. Simply saying, you want to dictate others what they should do with their virtual property. With you and other oppressionists Second Life is surely marching towards virtual communism.
Hello Talarus
Having the person whom Jack threatened to eject from his office hour accuse me of being hysterical is extemely amusing.
For months you've been complaining about visual spam and now that's going, guess what, you're still not happy. Sorry no dice. if you want to expand your land you could still have a neighbour next to you who will not sell at a price you accept. This is a dangerous road to go down, you're arguing that you have more rights than your neighbour and I simply will not accept that. If the plot was 512 you still wouldn't be able to expand so cut this crap hey, it's plain wrong.
The most ironic thing about your rant though is that whilst I and others are picking up abandoned plots or plots that have been sold on the cheap, whilst the very people you complain about are looking at ways to get out of dodge and are running on empty, you give them free fuel. They cannot force you to buy their plots, ignore them and they will go away. They have lost their ammunition, they are fighting with one hand tied behind their back, the war is over, stop giving them hope.
The empty plots contained banlines, that was their griefing tool of choice. That has now been taken away from them. I was next to them, I complained, I put up trees, I got ar'd and the banlines stayed. The banlines are gone now. They have lost that weapon.
A couple of things in closing, I generally don't buy and sell land, I rent it. I rent mainland, I have seen the crap and have had plots made unrentable so I fully understand the crap foisted upon us. However if the 16M plots next to my land had not contained banlines I'd have rented it no problem. Hence why I'm happy to see this action taking place, but this action was taking place before the policy change, see Robo Marx for further details.
Now should be a time of waiting to see how it pans out, not demanding more. Now is a time to enjoy the clearing of the skies.
Nicely Put.
When I look an epic rant like the one above, I'm reminded of the obvious danger of becoming too emotionally invested in a 'cause.' Namely, the activist becomes dependent on the struggle itself as a component of their identity. Their worst fear becomes victory, because victory means the fighting has to stop.
The anger was good as a catalyst to pursue change. Now it just has you running in circles. Vicious cycle. Symbolic interaction. Crusader's dilemma. Call it what you want, it's a prelude to disaster. Funny the things you realize in a month.
Meanwhile, I wish all of this fire were being directed towards RL problems. We could use it.
Wrong again, as usual :)
I'm invested in it as long as it remains a issue for me to get what I need to do done in SL.
Just as I have said before; when the core problem is finally addressed and eliminated, I will return to doing what I enjoy doing; building and spending time with friends. I am only in this crusade until its goals are met. Its goals obviously have yet to be met, since I still can find copious evidence that the overall problem still exists all over the mainland. I have the evidence right in and around my own land. Is it improving? Sure. However, it is nowhere near complete.
Not sure why you don't think I put effort behind RL problems with as much passion. Well, I can understand why; you don't know anything about me beyond this issue. Really makes you qualified to pass judgment on my motivations here and elsewhere, doesn't it?
Right.
Your comment inspired my points, but they were meant in a general sense. Still, when I compare my statements to your response, it seems to me that you've merely provided support for my statements.
Not sure what to say. Thanks, I guess.
I don't think so..
Only time will tell for sure, though.
Still not getting it..
>Having the person whom Jack threatened to eject from his office hour accuse me of being hysterical is extemely amusing.
I wasn't threatened with ejection for being "hysterical". I was threatened because I challenged Jack while he was under pressure. If you read the log, what did I say to get him to threaten?
>For months you've been complaining about visual spam and now that's going, guess what, you're still not happy. Sorry no dice. if you want to expand your land you could still have a neighbour next to you who will not sell at a price you accept. This is a dangerous road to go down, you're arguing that you have more rights than your neighbour and I simply will not accept that. If the plot was 512 you still wouldn't be able to expand so cut this crap hey, it's plain wrong.
As usual, you have NO CLUE what the hell you are talking about.
Read this: http://etakeh-oh.net/adless/?page_id=7
That was written in April. LONG before Jack said anything other than "no news, but we're talking about it". What does it say in the FIRST FRICKIN' PARAGRAPH? Hmm? Why, I believe it talks about EXTORTION. Imagine that.
The problem is you only hear what you want to hear, and then go off on that, completely mischaracterizing what was originally said, or you only take part of the argument, or take something out of context. Whatever. It doesn't make what you say true, and I am here CORRECTING the record.
I have several neighbors who don't have their land for sale. Two of their plots are 512sqm and 3088sqm. I have no problems with them being where they are, even though the 512sqm cuts off a 256sqm chunk of land I can't really do much with unless I buy his plot. However, I have NO desire to force him to do anything. I *MAY* make him an amiable offer for it, *IF* he is interested in selling and moving, but I would NEVER consider going to him with the intent of harassing him into selling or otherwise coercing him to move. His land isn't hurting me. Same goes with the 3088sqm folks, who, even though I rarely see them, we watch out for each other and help out with builds and other things. They are good people, and I will defend and protect them vigorously.
I have even made very courteous and fair offers to all microparcel owners from the very first day I started buying more land in the region, all the way back in January. I have made a deal with one of them to put his advertising in my mall in exchange for selling me his microparcel in it, and I will honor it. However, those who have malicious intent (and even SAY so) to use the Microparcels to screw me over; hell yeah, I want them gone, and am happy to campaign the Lindens until they ARE gone. Period.
>The most ironic thing about your rant though is that whilst I and others are picking up abandoned plots or plots that have been sold on the cheap, whilst the very people you complain about are looking at ways to get out of dodge and are running on empty, you give them free fuel. They cannot force you to buy their plots, ignore them and they will go away. They have lost their ammunition, they are fighting with one hand tied behind their back, the war is over, stop giving them hope.
That's because it is all BULLSHIT. We've already got snapshots of MORE land cut TODAY. Nothing has changed overall with extortion. Yeah, they have one less tool in their bag. That's good. That's a win for us, but it is ONLY a battle; the war wages on, because they still have the unbalanced extortion power of microplots to wield against everyone on the mainland, and they are CONTINUING to do so.
You want to prove me wrong? Prove to me that it isn't more profitable to become a landcutter and microparcel extortionist, even now. Hell, there's another resident in the forums who just starting doing it this week himself, just to prove the point that nothing has changed, and people are BUYING his chopped extortion parcels.
All I asked Jack was what I (and others like me) are supposed to do. I have 13 16sqm microparcels left in my mall. I have tried fair negotiation and made courteous and fair offers to all of them. Some responded, most ignored, and one or two launched into more harassment. I simply want to heal the land and be able to use my land as I see fit. They know they are an obstruction to that, and specifically go out of their way to make themselves a nuisance. Won't trade, won't sell, and are quite happy to tell me in IMs that they are going to "ruin my Second Life until I commit suicide".
>Now should be a time of waiting to see how it pans out, not demanding more. Now is a time to enjoy the clearing of the skies.
The problem is that LL has a history of doing "just enough" to treat a symptom, and then leave the cure on the table until it becomes clear that they didn't do near enough, but in the intervening months, the damage has escalated to ridiculous proportions. With people going right back to cutting more land just DAYS after this huge sweep, it is obvious how it is going to pan out. LL is going to sit back on their laurels, patting themselves on the back for a job well done, and wait until the chair collapses under them.
To be sure, I *AM* enjoying (and have expressed appreciation for) the fruits of their effort thus far, but I also know that it is superficial, because the core problem continues unabated. Not to mention that it also doesn't fully address the advertising issue to my satisfaction; there is still no relief for those who do NOT want parasitic advertising next to their land or visible to them in their region; 8m tall adblocks are still visible, and if the Lindens are going to enforce removal of blocking prims, there is no relief at all. It's a good first step in a larger effort to finally rid the mainland of the Blight.
Anyway, I know you and I don't agree or see eye-to-eye on some of these issues, but at least do me a favor and TRY to debate what I say, not what you think I said. If you have questions, ASK. I am happy to explain. I also would suggest not using chat "sound bites" culled during heated exchanges for 100% evidence of my overall position. There's often not time during a big meeting with lots of text scrolling by and lots of things I want to say something about to make a formal and fully-fleshed-out thought.
..and before anyone bitches about me being anonymous, I tried registering here, didn't get the email, and couldn't register my name again until the existing registration expires. I'll try again when I have a chance to check to make sure I am not having trouble getting the registration emails.
Coercion
That would be the first paragraph that talks about a lot of the extortion techniques that have recently been outlawed? The donut hole is an issue, banlines are gone now. They simply don't have the power anymore, Linden Lab have a license to print as much land as they like.
As Elanthius pointed out in an earlier comment, people were talking about eminent domain at that office hour, I don't agree with that. The problem here is that it starts out with people talking about 16M parcels being the problem, then 32, 64, 128, 256 and where does it end?
You and I do disagree on points, but we don't disagree anywhere near as much as you suggest. I've successfully ar'd parcels since the policy came into effect and unsuccessfully ar'd parcels that to my eyes are in breach of the policy.
It's only profitable to become a landcutter, and cutting is now the only real tool in their armoury, if people pay the outrageous amounts. This is where people need to make a stance, just don't purchase from them. Whatever shape your existing land is, that's how you purchased it, stick with it and strangle the life out of their high prices that way. Linden Lab have done a lot now to put us in the position to refuse to be extorted.
There will be I'm sure, some unlucky resident who finds him or herself next to an ad farm with this silly policy of allowing one plot per sim to be used for the purpose. How that pans out will be interesting. I don't agree with microparcel advertising and have said so many times, I've challenged the so called advertisers to come up with a solution that means they work with parcel owners, not against them. I have an ad plot next to my land with an ad that conforms with the policy, but the location of it is extremely odd and I don't see how it will get much passing traffic. The person who owns the plot also owns the location he's advertising. Why he thinks that is effective advertising is beyond me.
You're feeding them by asking them for a fair price, their nefarious practices in the past have proven where they're coming from. I simply won't approach them. I won't show an interest in their game. Feeding them gives them oxygen.
My post wasn't just aimed at you, indeed it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. There were a combination of opinions there that concerned me, eminent domain, price capping, I don't agree that's the way to go.
The bottom line is that all Linden Lab have to do is apply a common sense policy of telling people to stop acting like dicks, their TOS is broad enough to give them the scope to do that. There's no real need for all this clarification and new policy. The more rules you clarify the more people will look to bend them.
I'm more in favour of suggestions such as offering people the choice of swapping their 16M plots for a plot elsewhere. Combining them and then telling them if they cut the new plot like that they'll lose their accounts. That might weed a few more of them out, some will stick it out to the bitter end but the bitter end will arrive if we starve them. Don't feed the animals.
More reasonable, but still missing some points...
>That would be the first paragraph that talks about a lot of the extortion techniques that have recently been outlawed? The donut hole is an issue, banlines are gone now. They simply don't have the power anymore, Linden Lab have a license to print as much land as they like.
Yes, but the whole point is about /extortion/, citing specific examples of how it is implemented. Sure, some of the more odious and overt forms of harassment are now verboten (assuming the Lindens continue to police it well), but several also still remain.
Banlines didn't really bother me all that much, but I also didn't have a lot of contiguous parcels using them. I never even saw the things until I bounced off the parcel, so I never saw the "visual spam" angle, myself. However, it was the intent of putting up banlines on microparcels which was the issue, and in the case of long strips of contiguous parcels which blocked access from roads they were cut next to.
They still have quite a bit of power to extort and harass, because it is inevitable that people will want to expand, or are just leery of having a checkerboard of cut land next to their land where "legal" ads will most likely spring up. It is ludicrous to expect that, to avoid extortion, that someone has to move every time they want to get a larger piece of contiguous land. Growth is natural and inevitable for many people who buy land. LL should want it that way, too. However, extortion practices are a huge disincentive to it.
>As Elanthius pointed out in an earlier comment, people were talking about eminent domain at that office hour, I don't agree with that. The problem here is that it starts out with people talking about 16M parcels being the problem, then 32, 64, 128, 256 and where does it end?
When LL closes an account for ToS violations, it is effectively the same thing as eminent domain. They have taken the land of a resident. I doubt they have a requirement to close an account to reclaim land, and I think they should exercise their right to do so when it is evident that the land in question is intended to harass or extort, or otherwise act as nothing more than a roadblock to progress. That's the way it works in RL, too. If people are breaking the ToS with land, they can and should lose their land. If they are intentionally obstructing someone else's enjoyment of their land, they should at least be expected to enter into good faith negotiations if their neighbors request it, leading to simple sale or trade of land, potentially coerced, if the parcel in question is a microparcel (<256sqm by my definition, which is where I think it should end, since 256sqm+ starts to actually become useful beyond the basics). Obviously, this wouldn't apply to people like Weedy Herbst or Elanthius, because they already offer up-front to enter into good-faith negotiations to trade parcels, so I don't know why Elanthius is worried about it. When someone waves around the "eminent domain" flag, I don't expect that to mean that land will be reclaimed and given to someone else just on whim, and without due compensation to the owner of the land so claimed. I expect it to be well-considered and fairly negotiated between the concerned parties before any action is taken on the part of Linden Lab.
>It's only profitable to become a landcutter, and cutting is now the only real tool in their armoury, if people pay the outrageous amounts. This is where people need to make a stance, just don't purchase from them. Whatever shape your existing land is, that's how you purchased it, stick with it and strangle the life out of their high prices that way. Linden Lab have done a lot now to put us in the position to refuse to be extorted.
Considering that almost all the extortionists are alts of, or close friends with, the landcutters/adfarmers themselves, it is still just as profitable to them. They don't make money off of their alts and buds, they make money off of doing everything they can to make their microparcel landcutting as odious as possible. Yeah, they've lost some of the easier tricks out of their bag, but the most effective ones still remain. I've refused to be extorted for 9 months now. I still have some of the worst ones left, and not just a few, either. There's still over 700sqm of adfarm / extortionist plots left in my region, a third of which are in or adjacent to my mall. Most of the ones left will simply pay L$13/mo out of spite. They won't deal, trade, or otherwise negotiate. They will continue to harass and grief. I will continue to AR, and nothing will come of it. I know quite a few people who have given up long before now, abandoned up to a region of land, and quit SL permanently over these tactics, because they simply can't do anything as long as these people continue to harass and extort with impunity. Is it right that someone with a single 16sqm parcel can completely drain all the enjoyment out of someone who owns a thousand times more land? It wouldn't be an issue if the person with the microparcel was fair and willing to deal, but these people simply /aren't/ going to deal, because that isn't part of the plan.
>You're feeding them by asking them for a fair price, their nefarious practices in the past have proven where they're coming from. I simply won't approach them. I won't show an interest in their game. Feeding them gives them oxygen.
Most everyone is going to ask for a fair price or trade. That's what you do to be neighborly. If you see a piece of land that is lying fallow next to yours, and you have the wherewithall to show an interest in taking over responsibility for it, why wouldn't you approach the owner to enter into good faith negotiations? If you own a large tract of land, and bought (or simply were interested to buy) another one on the other side of a microparcel, why wouldn't you want to approach the microparcel owner to talk about making a deal? I've never been belligerent to any of the microparcel owners when I have made them offers. My offer letters are very formal, and very friendly. It is only when I get the inevitable rude comments back that I see what they are really up to, and then things change.
Not showing any interest doesn't change anything. It doesn't cost them anything significant to leave those parcels there for YEARS. L$13/month in tier. That's it. They know the longer they are out there, the more likely someone will eventually cave in and buy them. Maybe not the current neighbors, but the ones after them, or the ones after them, etc.
>My post wasn't just aimed at you, indeed it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. There were a combination of opinions there that concerned me, eminent domain, price capping, I don't agree that's the way to go.
Well, I am for simply letting LL decide what is and is not extortion, based on behavior, and then just outright banning and reclaiming land for anyone who crosses the litmus. I would be for them keeping the litmus secret, too, so it can't be gamed. Guessing at what it is would then be an expensive proposition that few would be willing to put up the money for. I am no fan of unnecessary market interference, but at the same time, I know that an unregulated market will be dominated by greed and the unethical practices to effect such. A totally "free" market is about nothing more than who can fuck over everyone the most and fastest. Period. If you are ethical and honest, you might as well not even bother to participate. That's what these anarcho-capitalists are all about; they want that freedom to profit off of whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want, damn everyone else; even the HINT of regulation to even the playing field makes them cry "COMMUNISM!" in shrill voices. It disturbs the recitation of their sacred mantra "I got mine, fuck you!".
>The bottom line is that all Linden Lab have to do is apply a common sense policy of telling people to stop acting like dicks, their TOS is broad enough to give them the scope to do that. There's no real need for all this clarification and new policy. The more rules you clarify the more people will look to bend them.
..and in the end, that's all I am asking for; the specific mechanisms aren't important, but they WILL include some form of eminent domain, whether it be confiscating land that they deem is being used to violate the ToS, or from closing accounts for same. I have said all along that LL doesn't need to quantify all possible details of their rules, but for the things they are going to allow, they do need to. Otherwise, for some things where you just aren't sure, it becomes a guessing game of whether or not what you are doing is legal.
>I'm more in favour of suggestions such as offering people the choice of swapping their 16M plots for a plot elsewhere. Combining them and then telling them if they cut the new plot like that they'll lose their accounts. That might weed a few more of them out, some will stick it out to the bitter end but the bitter end will arrive if we starve them. Don't feed the animals.
Well, when you find a sure-fire way of getting people to stop feeding the animals, let me know. So far, even our mass-education campaigns have not borne much fruit in that area, because people still to this day pay the extortion tax.
Of course you and I agree on
Of course you and I agree on this issue. I normally have a fair number of micro parcels on my books but because of the ad ban there's a bumper crop right now. If I choose to set it all for sale for 50 bajillion lindens and leave it there forever it should be my right. I bought the land fair and square I should have every right to own it for as long as I want.
You see it a lot on the forums and blog. Some people are just flat out insulted that others might choose to set their own personal parcel for sale for 10/sqm or 20/sqm or 1000/sqm. Where's the harm? If you don't like the price don't buy it's really very simple.
As for the claim that people are buying 16s and setting them for sale at high prices because they know nearby land owners will want to buy it... Well guess what. I also set my land for high prices if I think demand is high. So does any sensible trader of just about any product. That's common sense.
The most insulting argument I heard at the meeting though was that a large land owner should be able to claim eminent domain over small land owners that are surrounded or perhaps just nearby. For a start, that little 16sqm parcel in the middle of your larger parcel MUST have been there before you were. Either that or the you sold a piece in the middle of your own land. Of course, I own a hell of a lot of mainland, I'm sure I could own a lot more if I started stealing tiny parcels from people who didn't want to sell but I'm not sure how I'd feel about acting like a big bully perhaps I could make an exception for certain Arbor Project members seem to have no such qualms.
One last point about profit. This is another thing I see a lot on the forums. Certain people rail against greed or excess profits but who is to decide how much profit is too much? What's so bad about wanting to maximise your income? I admit it, I want money so I can buy things, the more money, the more things then the better. There's no shame in it. Of course it is wrong to make money in unethical ways and the debate can rage about what counts as ethical and what doesn't but there is nothing fundamentally unethical about making money and I hope every business owner agrees.
Ad Farms
It amazes me how people are never happy! This battle is all but won. Lets move on to the next most irritating item! Jez Bailey :)
16m...
As a parcel of land, 16m plots are somewhere between useless and 3 prims. They could make the minimum parcel sale size larger - I think 512m is a good building block - but creation of smaller parcels is necessary for many things.
Just don't sell them.
That's my thought.
Second Life Consultant
Time For Moderation
I think that over time, the market for 16ms will dry up, given the limits on ads and cracking down on visual noise on small plots. It is the builds and not existance of the plots that is the biggest annoyance to nearby land owners. I think we need to wait and see if the current LL policies clear up a large part of this issue before taking any further action.
I am in favor of a voluntary (note voluntary) recycling program that allows landowners with 16ms to swap multiple parcels for larger, buildable plots and makes those smaller parcels available to adjoining landowners. This would help reconstitute the mainland and increase tier for LL - a win/win for everyone.
However I agree with Elan that ultimately landowners should be able to charge what they want for their land, regardless of the parcel size - as long as the neighbors are not subjected to harassment. It is the rotating signs, banlines, excessive scripts, etc. that have always been the source of most of the resident complaints I have received. LL has taken a good first step so everyone should take a deep breath and see how this plays out over the next few weeks/months before advocating additional policies. There are bigger economic issues in both SL and RL where this time and attention could be better served right now.
For our part, Arbor has suspended the networked banlist. This is due in part to the recent events and the desire to move forward and in large part to some technical support issues that were going to have to be addressed very quickly anyway.
As for Jack's office hours, attending one was enough for me. I would rather be griefed by a Pink Power Ranger (which strangly enough happened when I first moved here and bought land next to the Baku sim)than have to sit through some of those exchanges.
Xerses Goff
Founder Arbor Project
Agreed
I agree with how you see things turning out and I hope we're both right. I am already seeing abandoned plots or plots other land dealers have picked up and set for sale for a reasonable price. Some even offer plots for free to adjoining land owners, both Arbor and The Ninjas make similar offers.
I again agree that now is a time to wait and see. I foresee sporadic instances of a last hurrah. Some collusion and some unfortunate residents still being left next to an unsightly mess. However the extortionists tanks are running close to empty, now is not that time to refuel them.
The recycling idea sounds good as long as it has a proviso that the new land won't be cut.
Solution to your advertising needs!!
BDVR to provide land for BIG 50 Advertising program!
In order to help the business community in Second Life better promote their businesses under the current ad restrictions we would like to introduce the BIG50 Advertising program. It works as follows:
For the price of $L40,000 lindens we will supply your business with 50 prime roadside 16s to advertise on including placement of your ad. You just need to supply us with the following
1. Create a group and Invite Robo Marx as the owner.
2. Add at least 800sqm of tier to the group for us to place the land in.
3. Send us a a LL compliant advertisement with full perms.
3. If you don’t have an ad we will create a basic one for $L2,000 (we just need a texture and link to website or a landmark)
4. We require payment upfront for all work done in the amount of $L40,000, all work will be completed with 1 week from time of payment.
5. After the work is completed we will leave the group so you have full control.
This will be a great way to get your business noticed at low added tier cost of $8 per month at the most, unless you have some tier free. If you are not a premium member we will donate tier for a fee. This cuts out all the leg work of finding ad space and erecting your own ads. With the new restrictions and LL policy of no ad licenses the price of paying ad networks is bound to inflate. So why not own the ad network for your business.
I will leave the group when finished and you will have full control of the group and land after the project is complete including adjustment of ads . Any questions contact Robo Marx directly. Smaller ad setups are available at $L1,000 per site.
ROBO MARX
CEO BDVR
VP BIG50 Advertising
Oh behave!
This isn't going to work. You'll be breaching the policy as soon as you join another group.
You're basically selling 50 16M plots to someone for L$40,000, they're not worth that sort of money.
You know where this is heading, sales of 16M plots will be price capped, you'll only have yourself to blame.
Re: Oh behave!
ROBO's proposal is about more than selling 50 16 square meter parcels, it is about providing an ad network system with it that is fully deployed, essentially paying ROBO to do the setup installation. That is value added that goes over and above mere land price.
Frankly I am suggesting to ad network operators that they modify their systems to be franchisable. They can sell an ad network in a box that they can set up on their own land (or buy properties with the package) to promote their own regular business.
While I am not an ad network operator, given the new policies, I am exploring obtaining one to promote our estate business and exchange businesses. The ad network limits are really, at their core, a move by certain FICish individuals (ESC, SLX, etc) to monopolize advertising (along with, of course, search classifieds, which benefit LL). Legitimate businesses have a legitimate need to advertise their products and services, and this policy is very punitive to us who are such and who are not guilty of any sort of land brokering that people dont like.
The simple fact is that as long as a sim has a 15,000 prim limit, the last few prims in every sim will naturally demand a very high price. That is how supply and demand works. Anybody who wants to legislate against that is absolutely a virtual communist.
Re: Oh behave!
Your logic works as long as you assume that people want to buy the parcels with the gobblygook advertising network on it.
This assumption would be assuaged by proper *market research*, which is an integral part of business, and which has not been done.
Therefore, this concept has a base below that of sand. Perhaps dung.