August 13, 2008 by Konner McDonnell
Posted in
Readers likely remember that Delicious Demar Enterprises (DDE) was one company entangled in a mass delisting after WSE CEO Lukeconnell Vandeverre (RL: Luke Connell) froze and liquidated ("delisted") several companies due to their congregating en masse without his approval to discuss key issues pertaining to their future on the WSE. DDE itself was not delisted, but the company's namesake and CEO, Delicious Demar, felt compelled to voluntarily delist.
Last week, Delicious Demar announced that Vandeverre had locked her account at some point just before the WSE's "reopening." Decrying the act as a theft of her shareholder's rightful assets(reportedly 234,000L$ PLUS share holdings), Demar summarized Vandeverre's decision as being due to her having
...an opinion that isn't popular with the owner of the WSE - i.e. that it is a highly risky endeavour, and the owner has shown himself to be without honour. In his megalomaniacal mind, that justifies the theft of OUR assets.
Since my own account was locked due to what Vandeverre has phrased "fostering a negative opinion of the WSE," I've no doubt that Demar is correct. In the months between the WSE's abrupt trading halt and reopening, we've seen more than a few instances of frozen accounts, delisted companies, and disappearing announcements.
Appearing at the end of that blog was a comment left by Ivan Halfpint, former advisor to WSE-listed Fund Second Life(FSL)-rebranded "Fund Virtual Shares(FSV)" due to copyright issues- who left due to conflicts with FSL's management in their decision to remain listed at the WSE. Halfpint provided a log of an encounter with Vandeverre, which, while excerpted, would appear to be nothing new, save for the clarification of Vandeverre's position:
(Posted with Ivan Halfpint's permission)
You=Ivan Halfpint
[18:58] You: Scott he told me by posting comments he idnt like on public fourms it violates some TOS
[18:59] You: I didnt realise there was a clause that if I posted somethng in pulic Luke didnt like he gets to keep the lindens in my acount
[18:59] LukeConnell Vandeverre: I've made my position clear Ivan and I'm not going to allow you to try and make a scene and cause a disturbance. You either retract your statements and apologise your you are not welcome at Hope Capital or to use the WSE service
[19:00] You: I didnt do anything wrong in my eyes
[19:00] You: i allowed to post my opinions in public forums
[19:00] Scott Nestler: Luke, if he violated the TOS, you have tobe able to show him where in the TOS that was stated that he agreed to
[19:00] LukeConnell Vandeverre: Well its my service, I say you
did, thats the end of it
[19:00] You: well then i guess thats it
[19:00] Scott Nestler: If it's in the TOS, show him where
[19:01] You: Id actually appreciate hearing about this clause
[19:01] LukeConnell Vandeverre: Scott, its very clear in the terms
Though I can't authenticate this log, I'm comfortable posting it as it doesn't introduce anything new , but is instead a reinterpretation of old news.
Earlier today, Demar posted a notice that she'd be seizing DDE shares held by all known WSE-supporters. Towards the end of this announcement, Demar made clear that her notice was a farce. On some level, I'm disappointed. Where "fostering a negative(albeit honestly stated) opinion of the WSE" is a damnable act in Vandeverre's eyes, certainly supporting the vulgar display of administrative authority, by which the WSE has become notorious, is a crime against reputable business-doers the metaverse over. I've no doubt Vandeverre's idol Warren Buffet would have words for this kind of customer stewardship. If anyone has Buffet's ear, I'd love a comment!
Demar's post alluded to an active pursuit of remedies. When asked exactly what type of action she'd be taking, Demar declined to comment.
I should note that I've become all but avoidant of covering anything remotely related to the exchanges. This decision is based on an opinion that my arguments have become redundant and any direct involvement may mistakenly lend an air of legitimacy where it is certainly not intended.
Yet, it's hard not to notice that Demar's outcry is the first I've seen that wasn't content to simply name the parties as helpless victims, but those trespassed in a very real and unacceptable way. I'll be paying particularly close attention to this issue for new developments.
Stay tuned.
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Re: Delicious Demar Reports Assets Frozen By WSE
Well, as of right now, withdrawls are still frozen for those who opened their accounts before WSE4.0. So my L$15k -- erm, I mean, WIC$15k is stuck there. Oh well, I'd already given up on it. And I was only using the bank there, not the investment side.
If only I knew then what I learned later...
Re: Delicious Demar Reports Assets Frozen By WSE
So almost 2 months after this post, there's still trouble with WSE accounts? It seems hardly surprising... maybe Luke invested too heavily in AIG...
Took you all long enough to figure it out...
I've been warning everybody about Luke for over a year now, and suffered smears, slander, libel, from legions of Luke alts and allies (including some of you who have now seen the light) as a result. When the SLEC stood against Luke last fall (in a vote in which I was only one vote out of a whole board), you attacked it for its brave stance. So, now that I and the SLEC are proven right, what next?
IntLibber Brautigan
http://www.ace-exchange.com
What's Next
Glad you asked, sir.
I'm going to launch an IPO on your exchange.
Here's a preview:
Company name: SUX
Use of Capital
Intended use of capital is buying Intlibber the ego boost he's never received from talking down to everyone, claiming victim only to perform the same offensive behaviors relying on his brand of technicality and innuendo, and this absurd expectation that he should be bathed in praise when he's right - which is always, of course, since he's never taken responsibility for anything that went wrong.
Remaining funds will be used to buy him a one way ticket to Ancapistan, Australia. I've been told they have no laws down that way, so an Anarcho-Capitalist like him will likely find it downright cozy.
If you ever decide to devolve and rejoin us mere humans, let me know.
heh-heh
Konner, I was thinking of adding my own diatribe about Int's post, but you have said it so much better! I applaud you! My response would have been extremely amerturish (is that a word?).
Thank you.
Post tags
Currently, this blog post tags are "Law". "Stock Exchange" and "VSTEX". It must be noted, the VSTEX (Virtual Stock Exchange) isn't in any way related with the WSE (World Stock Exchange), nor has ever been.
We strongly deprecate WSE business practices, with inclusion of (but no limitation to) the usage of our name in their SL classifieds as it happened back in 2007, seizure of user accounts for no rightful (as long as we're concerned) reason and so on.
Who wants to learn about us can visit our website.
Samantha Goldflake - Director
VSTEX Communication and Public Relations
http://www.vstex.net
On the other hand...
it could have simply been a mistake. One email could have cleared that up. And I would have noted the correction myself. Believe I've done that for VSTEX in the past. Anyway. It's been corrected. Jeez.
Nothing personal
Konner, nobody said it was intentional from you. Everybody makes mistakes, no big deal.
As for sending you an email rather than making a public comment, I don't see the issue.
Thanks for the correction.
Regards,
Samantha Goldflake - Director
VSTEX Communication and Public Relations
http://www.vstex.net
You missed the best part of the disease
Konner, you missed the best part of this conversation with Ivan, and I quote:
"[18:55] LukeConnell Vandeverre: I have already said and I'm not repeating what i've said. Fact remains, you breached the WSE TOS.According to the LL TOS once you transfer your fictional currency license to another user in SL, in this case Wse Huet you no longer control that license or the fictional currency balance assigned to it. WSE has also made the Terms of the service it provides very clear when you joined and has more than enough details on the site explaining and linking to the WSE.
"
(Of course he doesn't state that the WSE TOS is subject to change at a moments notice. I think many CEO's and large shareholders discovered that the hard way!)
I would like to highlight the following from the above quote:
"According to the LL TOS once you transfer your fictional currency license to another user in SL, in this case Wse Huet you no longer control that license or the fictional currency balance assigned to it. "
You know the sad thing about it, is that he is right. But I think that quote in and of itself summarizes Luke and WSE. That is why the financial community for the most part is upset
There is a small group of us that have publicly stated that we are tired of Luke's meglomania and that we are going to put the word out about his history and what he has done to WSE in the past year and a half or so.
And from this small effort, what kind of response do we get from Luke:
"[16:07] LukeConnell Vandeverre: (Saved Mon Aug 11 00:07:24 2008) Hello. WSE has over 27000 accounts of which less than 10 are locked due to breaches of the WSE Terms of Service by those users. I've noticed that you have been making it your business to you spread false allegations about the WSE and I'd like to know why you are doing this? what do you stand to gain? Your account isn't even locked. Regards, Luke."
Since this message is in my IM, I don't think I am violating LL TOS. I am giving permission to you to republish. Of course Luke only mentions the accounts that he has locked. I think just from reading various forums it is much larger than 10 but I won't quibble because he makes no mention of the accounts that he has closed and converted the Lindens to his WTF bonds!!
Several people who are speaking out about WSE and Luke have gotten this same message.
For the record my response is here:
http://www.slcapex.com/forums/topic/general/2157?page=3
For the record I just want to state to Luke that the community is tired of your manipulations and your megalomania. We choose to ignore you and many of us are taking it upon ourselves to encourage others to ignore you as well. We are not going to seek out LL to ban you or censure you or accuse you of fraud or scamming, etc. No lawsuits to worry about, etc. We are just going to communicate as best we can in SL and Facebook so that people will be aware of your history, what you have done publicly in the name of your TOS. We are doing this because we don't want to see you or WSE fail, we are doing it because we no longer believe that you are a trustworthy person to do business with. Nothing personal. Just the facts.
Arnaud Villota
thanks
Konner, thanks for considering the issue worthy of a post. As Arnaud has pointed out, perhaps our best and most far-reaching potential to have an impact is by getting the word out that Luke Connell and the WSE should be avoided. If we can stop even one investor from sinking her funds into the WSE, we have had an impact.
Arnaud, I applaud you for your level-headed and even-handed approach. I completely agree with the sentiment, particularly, "we no longer believe that you are a trustworthy person to do business with."
Personally, I am not content to stop there, however. In my mind, it is not enough to simply warn people to stay away - our reach is too limited, and there is a propaganda machine at the WSE that could counteract some of the effect we might have even on those people that do read what we have to say. Which is not to say that we shouldn't continue to try to get the word out - we should indeed.
And in fact, we may be having an effect. Or, perhaps Luke's reputation is just too well known now. for example, look at the metrics about the WSE since it reopened. Fewer than 500 new accounts - daily trade volumes representing less than 200k, sometimes as low as 10k per 24 hours. Most tellingly,sales of the WSE secondary have been dismal. It appears that 500,000 shares were sold the day BEFORE the exchange reopened (things that make you say, Hmmmm), but since then, only about 180k shares have sold in the two weeks since the WSE opened.
The projections of 2.3 billion in trading volumes and 70m in revenues is patently ridiculous. On its best day since opening, the WSE made less than 8000L in transaction fees. Based on his projections, Luke would need to make about 780,000 per day (on average) for the fourth quarter of this year - a growth rate of roughly 10,000%. Methinks Mr Connell might be aspirating on his aspirational goals...
If I am wrong, and he does manage to even come close to these numbers, how frightening is that? That's why I believe that some further action needs to take place. perhaps quietly and behind closed doors - but we can't just sit by and hope that people opt-in and read our concerns.
Makes me wonder where Luke will find the cash to honor the massive withdrawals that I suspect are coming at the end of September. the whole thing might just implode then, and we will watch with interest, to see what creatively unethical solution Luke comes up with to deny investors of their money.
dd
Nah.
You guys are the ones who should be thanked. The CEOs that responded to these diabolical acts with such graciousness? I think to myself: "If they can accomplish this in unregulated environments. I wonder what they're truly capable of."
I was blessed with an opportunity to throw my account away. I never expected people to bow down or thank me for it. Because I knew what to expect. Not that it's right. But people like Eclipse Eclipse who had their companies delisted for doing nothing more than attending to the wishes of their shareholders? I look to them with gratitude.
What I think Luke just fails to see is that his righteousness "as self-appointed through the WSE TOS" didn't protect the integrity of his platforms. It just created uncertainty in already nervous investors that couldn't access their funds. It's just really really sad to me. There's a real life identity tied to these things. And I feel like it's going to haunt him years down the road - if not sooner. May sound silly, but when I move to write these articles, I find myself thinking "Good lord Luke, what would your MOM think if she read this stuff?" People can laugh, but it'd hit me harder than anything folks here could ever dish out. All just really sad. Keep up your efforts, Del.
Bloody Well Done, Arnaud.
When I spoke with Ivan about the log as it appeared as a comment on Del's Blog, I was told that a full version wasn't available. I asked Scott Nestler to provide me with a second copy and that request went ignored. I've just now written a second request so I can include the full log in there.
I really did start writing here to aid shareholders. But except for a very limited time when I congregated with people on the WSE floor, I've never really been a member of the community. Not better. Not inferior. Just something of an outsider. I've taken this self-appointed duty so seriously that I've actually burned myself out through taking the fight to the forums and elsewhere. Plus, since my RL aspirations are of a legal nature, I've been inclined to constantly consider my position here as a writer in terms of the suggestions I make and what limitations I need to impose. The keyword is limits. And I need to determine mine.
Meanwhile, your comment is so cogently written that I can't help but think you should be here on Y2P, covering the exchanges from the perspective of the community within. What they're doing. Where they've come from. My angle has always been from the aforementioned role of (oft-objective and wholly self-designated) outsider. I think your pulse on the community makes you an asset here. And I hope you'll consider stepping in. Plus, it'd give me another excuse to write more op/eds that covers other areas in SL. I've inundated Y2P with exchange material. Definitely time to branch out.
If nothing else, I want to invite you to write an article and I'll post it here. We can work together and co-edit if you want. But I think what you have to say needs to be in an article, not just as a comment.
Finally, this claim of 10 accounts locked. I'm eager to know if that's true. So I'm going to throw a new article up quoting the portion you permitted to allow people to publicly state whether their account is locked. And perhaps a link as to why. I think we need more available records like that.
Best,
KM
Thanks for the kind words....But....
Konner, I read your response to Del
"Nah.Submitted by Konner McDonnell on Fri, 08/15/2008 - 06:36"
and I tell myself, there is no way that I can do that. Not that I don't agree with what you said, but I don't think I could have responded to Del with that kind of insight.
I am grateful for your remarks but I look to you guys (you, Nobody, Guardian(http://secondchaos.blogspot.com/), Sarah (even though we disagree on WSE, she is a bright spot on the blog scene), Aldon Hynes(http://www.orient-lodge.com/), Maelstrom Baphonet(http://dragonsbite.blogspot.com/), Ben Duranske (http://virtuallyblind.com/) etc., etc.) for insights into the markets as well as the many "newspapers" available in SL. I am just a reader, I don't feel qualified as a commentator or writer.
I may have an "idiot savant" attack of insight into a particular topic, if I'm lucky, but I don't feel I can provide an unbiased overview of a particular problem like you guys do on a consistent basis.
If anyone should be contributing regularly about the financial markets, if you are really serious about not reporting on them in the future, I would nominate Del in an instant. First of all she has been here longer than me and also she has been closer to the scene than I have, especially WSE and the early attempts at banks.
But thanks again for your comments. I hope that we succeed in putting the word out about WSE and Luke and possibly detail past SL Finance problems such as Ginko, Investor Allen, Jasper Tizzy, etc. so that people will learn not to accept "the good deal" at face value. If we can convince new people to do their homework, and show them how to do it, then I think we will be successful. If we succeed in this then we can build our small economy into something that everyone trusts and can participate in without worry.
I'd Love to see Del here.
She'd add a lot to the site, and I do believe I've invited her before. Plus she has a cuter av than I do. That has to count for something. :-)
But in my absence, as I await broadband, I am very pleased that everyone's pitching in on the site... and I read it with interest every day. :-)
And yes, you too, Arnaud, would be welcome. ;-)
Second Life Consultant
Ironically...
I've suggested Delicious before. I think her declination was on the same general premise as yours. And that's fine - people have to get in where they fit in. I'm not 'abandoning' anything. Simply upping my game. Always upping my game.
Some intriguing things happening right now. Most interested in seeing where it will go.
Nothing new here, did you
Nothing new here, did you really expect him to change his spots? I wouldn't be surprised though, the way he's going, if LL eventually ban exchanges like they did banks. Either that or everyone will quietly delist before saying exactly what they think of him, what use is an exchange with no listed companies?
Interestingly, despite my public challenge to him on this blog (in response to one of Nobody's posts) and in notecards accepted by him, he hasn't seen fit to ban my account. Guess he doesn't want to steal my 0.54L$, er sorry, 0.54W$.
Makes me feel left out.
Nope. Sure didn't.
It's the same ol' with a new face. But the value in the story is the newness of the response. No whining rant and acceptance of defeat. I don't have any expectations. People can and will do as they wish. That's just what I'm going to do. =)
If you want to get your account locked, my best suggestion is to do what countless others -including myself- have done: Give an honest opinion based on fact. Seems to be a pressure point.
WSE 4.0 IS GREAT
HUGE POTENTIAL, RL COMPANYS CAN GO IPO THERE,TOO!
BUY WIC`S AND SHARES WHILE THEY ARE CHEAP!
I DID ALREADY, BOUGHT A STOCK NAMED "CAR" FOR A FEW THOUSAND WIC`S AND WSE SECONDARY SHARES WHILE THEY ARE CHEAP!!!!
I heard that......
Peter Pan and Mickey Mouse were arrested today at Disney Land. I am thinking your post is along the same vein?
Can I have a toke of what you're smokin'
Thanks.
ROFLOL!
uhuh
I believe you. Tell me when you get your money back.
Second Life Consultant