August 6, 2008 by Sarah Nerd
Land popped up on list for 3.9l a meter for a 6144 so I went to look at it, and it was nice so I was about to buy it but then I hear this girl pleading with Sayuri Yuitza who bought her land with a bot for 1l when she was trying to group it. Why she's begging for her land back Sayuri Yuitza ejects and bans her and then tp's away. It's just sad.
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[20:34] Teleport completed from http://slurl.com/secondlife/NineInchNerds/128/128/14
[20:34] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[20:34] Indii Tolsen: I know you understand me
[20:34] Connected
[20:34] Indii Tolsen: Sarah
[20:34] You: Hi
[20:34] Indii Tolsen: this was a mistake
[20:35] Indii Tolsen: It wasnt ment to sell
[20:35] You: What happened?
[20:35] Indii Tolsen: I was changing the group
[20:35] You: =(
[20:35] Indii Tolsen: and I set it for 1L but before I had a chance to buy it it was boufght
[20:35] Indii Tolsen: please I need it back
[20:36] Indii Tolsen: I worked hard for it
[20:36] Indii Tolsen: it was total mistake
[20:36] Indii Tolsen: its our home here
[20:36] You: Are you giving it back to her?
[20:37] Indii Tolsen: she wont answer me
[20:37] Indii Tolsen: now my house has gone
[20:37] Sayuri Yuitza: ...............
[20:37] Indii Tolsen: and all the stuff in it
[20:37] Indii Tolsen: thats all I get
[20:38] Teleport completed from http://slurl.com/secondlife/Felipo/114/34/51
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[20:36] Sarah Nerd: Not sure who she is but I get the impression it's the alt of a shitty landbot who used to be called Celene that used to steal peoples land like that
[20:37] Indii Tolsen: oh my god
[20:37] Sarah Nerd: She just fucking ejected you didn't she
[20:37] Indii Tolsen: she ejected me
[20:38] Indii Tolsen: yes
[20:38] Indii Tolsen: Im in tears here
[20:38] Indii Tolsen: I paid so much for that
[20:38] Sarah Nerd: LL doesn't get involved generally but if I were you I would call
[20:39] Indii Tolsen: how can some one be so heartless
[20:39] Sarah Nerd: Greed
[20:39] Indii Tolsen: it was our home here
[20:42] Sarah Nerd: I'm gonna drop this on Jack Linden. He generally wont get involved but it doesnt hurt to try
[20:45] Indii Tolsen: I cant think
[20:45] Indii Tolsen: my house and furniture its all gone
[20:45] Indii Tolsen: I have to face Tumeke when he comes on
[20:47] Indii Tolsen: what a mess
[20:47] Sarah Nerd: I'd call LL as soon as possible.
[20:48] Indii Tolsen: I can rebuy it
[20:48] Indii Tolsen: its for sale already
[20:50] Sarah Nerd: Would you mind if I shared this on my blog?
[20:50] Indii Tolsen: no I dont mind ppl need to know about it
[20:50] Indii Tolsen: if it helps some one else then its a good thing
[20:51] Sarah Nerd: I don't think people who don't deal with land a lot realize how fast those bots move until it's to late
[20:51] Indii Tolsen: I didnt know there was such athing
[20:52] Indii Tolsen: Ive had rthis land for months
[20:52] Indii Tolsen: its devasting
[20:52] Indii Tolsen: but to take the furniture and house thatts really low
[20:54] Indii Tolsen: thanks for trying to help btw
[20:55] Sarah Nerd: Sorry it happened to you =(
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Caveat Venditor
Let the seller beware. I've never heard anyone comment on LL's stance regarding these accidents, but my guess is it's just that. Using the Land Auction system as a transfer utility seems to ask for these kinds of problems. Isn't there a better way?
Maybe you'll surprise me and tell me that LL will investigate and on some occasions return the land/L$ to the respective parties, as I tend to think any appointed body of SL citizens might (or require the purchase to pay a fair price). But I won't expect such a response.
Personally, I'm tired of these land bots. By their very nature they seem exploitive.
How does this still happen?
It sounds like it was a transfer.
Why do people insist on going the WRONG way to do these things? "I'll set it for sale for L$1 to ANYONE, and you buy it real quick, so I won't have to muss with selecting you as the recipient". Yeah, that will work.. NOT.
Maybe LL REALLY needs to oversimplify the interface, by turning it into a "wizard". I bet, even then, people will STILL do it the WRONG way, and then still complain about it when some landbot (or even a neighbor actively watching) buys their land for L$1 and won't give it back.
I think it is a rotten thing to do, but come on, take a little personal responsibility for one's actions here.
Lack of knowledge
The average Second Life Resident has never heard of a Landbot and don't understand what can happen. Most residents are not directly involved in the land business and do not read blogs like this one.
Don't need a landbot for this
They can't realize that anyone, even in an adjacent sim, could also just snap it right up?
I don't think it is landbots that are the issue, but lack of realization of the instantaneous nature of land sales, both in posting and purchasing.
Regardless, why wouldn't someone at least think about why there is an option to "sell to specific user: xxx" option in the dialog?
Anyway. I guess they really need to turn it into a wizard.
"It looks like you are trying to sell your land...
Do you want to:
1) Put it on the public market for sale to anyone?
2) Sell it only to someone specific?
3) Transfer it to a friend?
4) Change the group it is deeded under?
Note that all land sales are posted across the grid immediately, and land set for sale to anyone can be purchased by someone the moment you put it up for sale. Residents do not have to be present in your locale to purchase your land, and automated purchasing agents are in use by residents, which can purchase your land in an instant.
ALL LAND SALES ARE FINAL! As such, make sure you are doing it the right way. If you are unsure of what you want to do, please see the (Land KB link) for more information."
Still, at some point, it NEEDS to be chalked up to "a learning experience" when you screw up. There's only so much hand-holding that is feasible before it becomes insulting, and only so much layering of confirmation before it becomes inane and cumbersome.
Really, I think a simple warning/disclaimer combo notice would suffice:
"Land sales are FINAL. That means, if you make a mistake, you will most likely have to live with the consequences. Please take the time to educate yourself about your options and how to use the land sales/transfer dialog before doing so. Failure to properly use this function can result in the loss of your land! (links to Land KB)"
I like the 'Wizard' idea.
The interface for land sales is obviously developed by technical people - not people who actually use the interface day to day.
Your solution is valid. Unfortunately, I doubt it would gain much traction - Linden Lab, historically, doesn't care too much about user experiences that include the loss of anything of fiscal value. I believe that they may actually have meetings where they laugh about it. But then I also lock my tapioca pudding in the refrigerator.
Second Life Consultant
Seems rather simple to me...
I mean, here's what you have:
1) How much do you want to sell it for?
2) Who do you want to sell it to? (ANYONE? leave blank; Specific User? Type name, pick from list)
3) Sell the objects on the land with the land or not?
Then, a confirmation box pops up, describing the action and asking you if that is REALLY what you wanna do.
Doesn't seem too technical to me. The disconnect is that people make a grossly incorrect assumption, which becomes a very expensive mistake. The problem isn't a technical one, but a social one.
For the most part, I don't have a huge amount of sympathy. It's not like there is NO information about the problem in the Knowledgebase, forums, Video tutorial, NCI and other newbie organizations in-world, and a wealth of residents who will gladly answer the question. All one has to do is spend a little time looking / asking questions. Time that is often far cheaper than the cost of the mistake.
The Wizard or at least a more verbose disclaimer would probably add a crucial bit of information for those that insist on acting on their ignorance, but still, would there be outraged blog entries and forum threads about "landbots stealing land from unususpecting newbies" with a Wizard like that in place? Probably so. At some point, though, I have to say to the "victim": "It's a hard lesson; learn it and be wise next time".
Yeah.
It's a simple fix to remedy a reoccurring problem. And the problem itself is one made ignorantly. But if the solution is simple, why not do something when the problem is the ignorant look to you with blame. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong from a business perspective. And if these claims that a Linden takes the ill-begotten land away from the botters is true? It's saying they frown upon the practice. But they're content to cure the problem instead of preventing it. There's some man hours lost. More overhead. So the cost of the mistake is costly from both ends.
Argue simplicity all you want. While I would certainly agree. It'd actually just make it more ridiculous that a simply remedy isn't considered. Sometimes protecting the institution means protecting citizens from others. And in many instances - themselves. I wouldn't say the ignorant are stupid though. Maybe they just believe that they're in a harmonious society where people act in good faith. Or where they're protected. Naive? Yes. Stupid? Not really.
.
Kinda Sad.
With the new semester starting up soon, I figured I'd return in a few weeks and find a wealth of articles from a very content wandering penguin. Ah well. I keep writing my little comments about the uncaring business hoping someone will prove me wrong. Perhaps spending a few months dwelling on people ripping each other off has tainted my entire view of SL. Apparently not.
SL basic account: Free.
One Tazo rooibos tea and one E.S. Posthumus CD enjoyed while writing articles on Y2P: 13.85USD
A deeper appreciation of RL because your insignificance is patently obvious? Priceless.
Anonymous2 says ...
Amen to that !
Agreed.
I very much agree that ignorance is ONE reason for these problems. But I tend to think that after something happens enough then it ceases to be simply ignorance on the part of the enduser, but irresponsibility on the part of the administrator. It has been suggested already that Jack (or some other Linden) would quietly 'twist the buyers arm.' Assuming that is the case, there are two problems:
1. It's coercive. If there's no policy against the action being 'corrected' then this really amounts to tyranny. I accused LukeConnell Vandeverre of being a tyrant for his acquisition of the funds of anyone who so much as disagreed with him("fostered a negative attitude"). Is either actionable? I have no idea. But from a community standpoint, it's questionable form. And yes, I know people use 'leverage' all the time.
2. If a Linden forces an action, they have made a statement on how the behavior justifying that action is perceived. But this action is not followed by any amendment to policy. I take issue with that.
Don't get me wrong. I don't know Jack Linden. And I'm inclined to believe if he does 'twist someone's arm' he's trying to do the right thing. But there's a reason Phil Linden assigned himself the role of Governor. Heck, in his "Mission of Linden Lab" blog, he wrote:
People have opportunities they don't in the real world. Like flying, for example. They're empowered. But where rights, remedies, redress, and a sense of community are concerned? I would consider users to be disempowered. I'm not trying to say that SL should try to model our(my) government. Too limiting. I'd like to see them think bigger.
For all my blah-blahing about this, though, I fully recognize it's easy to say and extremely hard to implement. I do hope it's addressed, just the same. I make plenty of these lengthy arguments. And I'm not trying to assert myself as an authority on anything. Quite the contrary. I write things because they interest me and I like to hear people's thoughts.
/me gets off his soapbox.
Caveat Avatar
A problem with being in this virtual world is that there are less checks on scuzzy behavior than there ought to be, lower community standards. Why the hell in 2008 are ad farms tolerated, for example?
Unless good people step in, as is happening here, and the best possible regulations are put into place by enlightened game gods (the Lindens fall short on this, obviously), assholes like the owner of the Sayuri Yuitza avatar too easily prey on people who make mistakes. And SL suffers.
In this case Jack Linden will probably twist the jerk's arm til he or she drops the land. But how many people abandon SL because anonymous opportunists ruin their experience with impunity?
Answer: a lot.
Amen.
"In this case Jack Linden will probably twist the jerk's arm til he or she drops the land. But how many people abandon SL because anonymous opportunists ruin their experience with impunity?"
I know it's had that effect on me. I'm primarily interested in social justice issues in RL. My experiences in SL have made me want to spend less time in SL and more time focusing on RL activism. If LL or some other platform recognizes the need for self-regulatory mechanisms in virtual communities, that'll be the point when I step in to observe/partake.
Incidents like these can be kind of positive though. Bad experiences inspiring a more socially aware class of citizens in RL? Dare I hope?
km
I've seen LL take parcels
I've seen LL take parcels from the buyer and give them back to the seller without any interaction from the buyer a couple of times in the last few years.
I agree it is sad but . . .
it is sad and heart breaking. But . . . there will always be naivite on the web. Even if you made it more "foolproof". People don't read, they assume they know what they are doing and it can result in a bad deal.
When you are dealing with real money, you have to educate yourself.
You may never stumble accross landbots in your self-education, but you certainly should be cautious with real money and real assets.
*leaves sign on car saying "keys are inside for anyone"*